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Folks,
After talking to Royal this AM about the merits of driving my “Big” Red BCW TDr as is, I now see the light and am going to convert the old, non-doghouse 1970 1600cc engine to a doghouse cooler and “bigger?” fan.The previous owner had replaced the stock engine in the BCW with an engine that was built up for his mud rail, so he was not interested in keeping the engine running cool for longer than it took to race in the mud. He used a 1970 single port, dual relief non-doghouse cooler 1600cc engine. No upgrades to the engine cooling other than removal of the heat boxes and installation of j-tubes.None of the gauges worked when I bought the car, (actually the oil temp gauge was hooked up to the dash light dimmer so that I only had to change the brightness of the panel lights to change the oil temp reading on the gauge — so I had no clue how hot the car was running (at the time I did not know about the “if you can’t grab and hold the oil dipstick then the engine is running too hot” rule ….). I’ve since rewired the gauges so now I’ll at least know the engine oil temp and oil pressure.Anyone have suggestions as to where to get the tin, fan, etc? Does someone out there know of a source for a “conversion kit” that includes all the tin, the oil cooler adaptor, fan, shroud, etc?And finally, anyone have an opinion as to wether I’ll be ok with just making these changes or do you think I’ll need to add an external oil cooler to keep this beast running? — or should I just sell the engine and build up a more sensible one for the BCW than this 2332cc 200 hp beast?…or maybe hire Ed to retrofit my BCW with a SUBI engine?…he’s now the official expert in all such things…Thanks, JackA couple sources for a complete kit:
PMOSSBERG2014-01-07 17:05:26
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
Boy, that’s a list of loaded questions.
First of all, IMO unless there’s guys in your area running sand rails/beach buggies, IMO, you have a limited market to sell that monster to. Drag racers would want to build their own, using their own tricks, and if it’s too much for the street that would apply to whatever body is being run on it…Second, should you keep it, I’d suggest for that monster that you consider not only upgrading to a doghouse fan and oil cooler, but you also consider jumping up to the even larger Type IV oil cooler. It will bolt onto the engine, but the back of the shroud tin needs to have an extension welded in to enclose it. That would give you about 30% additional oil cooling capacity, as I recall — perhaps more. I’d try that first before going to an aftermarket cooler. IMO, those are a last resort.Finally, here’s a guy in Ohio who can probably assemble the entire tin kit you need (to include modifying it for a Type IV cooler) and the mods that have already been done to your engine — using a choice of fan shrouds, including modifying the 36HP type for the factory flaps and thermostat, adding the Hoover bit to match, or even adding a venturi ring to the back like the fuel injected cars had.., and then powder coat it in your choice of colors, leaving you to buy only the required cooler and seals. If your engine is running a generator (I think I recall an alternator), I’d upgrade to an alternator at the same time, which would require the matching stand to mount it on. I’d talk to this guy and tell him what you have, and discuss some alternatives:You can see the mods for a Type IV cooler, and his other cooling mods, here:He’ll even fix you a set of tins that are specially designed to address the gaps that result from putting a stroker crank in. Best source I know for updating the factory cooling system.The problem with trying to use a remote oil cooler on a TDr is where do you put it? If you put it on the tranny, all you’re doing is preheating the air that the fan shroud picks up and tries to cool the engine with. If you put it under a fender, you risk the tire kicking up a rock and puncturing it. If you put it too far from the engine, you have the additional “drag” to pump oil through all that plumbing. And if you try to address that with a larger pump, the oil bypass springs/valves will start bypassing — essentially by-passing the stock cooler, getting the opposite results of what you’re looking for….The existing doghouse cooler location and cooling system are designed to work together, and with the oiling system, whether the oil is hot and thin, or when it is cold and thick. When the oil is thick it isn’t even being routed to the factory cooler. You’ll not be able to easily recreate that engineering and efficiency with a remote setup.Etc., Etc. Etc.With all that said, I personally think you’d be much happier, long term with an engine that produced half that horsepower, but could happily do it all day without overheating. You have a “dragster” engine, and IMO, it will never be a “circle track” or road-race engine…EDIT: Re-read this this morning, and realized it came across pretty strong. As comes through in my own build/re-build thread, I’m not a huge fan of huge engines. I guess I’m just more a “finesse” guy than a “brute-force” guy.Bottom line is WHAT do you want from this BCW car? Do you want something with straight-line performance in this light-weight car? If so, be prepared to spend some perhaps additional money to cool the beast. Add a cylinder head temp gauge to monitor engine temps. Close up the factory tin to optimize the factory cooling. Be prepared to de-tune the engine, perhaps dropping the compression ratio (i.e. head temperature) a bit. Optimize the jetting to run a slightly rich mixture so it will run as cool as possible, yet still run well. Do you know someone with air-fuel gauges who can help you do this? Then, be prepared to upgrade the transmission to put all this power to the ground safely without breaking things. You’ll need heavy-duty side plates and such, or perhaps the stronger modified later-model Bus transmission — I’m no expert, especially with trannies, but I know VW trannies aren’t designed to handle that kind of power. And, don’t forget that you’ll need to be able to stop the beast. But, you’ve already done one disc brake upgrade, so I think you realize that side of the equation…Or, do you want more of a high-performance sports car that can handle running for hours at a time, perhaps going through the twisties, and be ready for more? If so, you may want to consider swapping out those large pistons/cylinders for something smaller that will run cooler and last longer, dropping it back to a 2180 or something, and adjusting the compression ratio accordingly…Or, simply sell it as is, and then spec and build an engine for what you have in mind… If you’re willing to strap it on a pallet, you can ship an engine all the way to west coast (where there’s a bigger market) for around $300 or so. Advertise it on Samba, and see if someone bites…IMO, the most important question is “What do YOU want this car to do?”KentT2014-01-08 07:58:47
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Thanks Paul, Kent, for the sources — and thanks Kent for your thoughts. And Kent, you did not come across too strong — I appreciate you candor and value your knowledge and opinions on engines.
I guess I really do have to decide what I want this car for. Once I figure that out, I can decide which route to take. I am leaning toward pulling the engine & selling it for what the market will offer. Thanks for the idea of listing it on SAMBA.Then I’ll have to decide how big to make the replacement engine — got plenty of room under the engine cover since the car was modified to hold that 2332…but replacement engine size is another whole topic for later…Just another idea: You could leave it set up for drag racing and run it that way. I’d be curious to see what it runs.
Of course, after the first pass you’ll be banned until you install a full cage…hmm..Jack, should you sell it, you may want to consider selling it as a “long block only” and hold on to those hard-to-find Dellortos for the engine you build later… you can tune those to run on a much smaller engine, likely all the way down to a 1679, 1776 or something like that.
Pulling the shroud (which is of little value) and carbs off would make it much easier to ship, also…Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Royal gave me one more suggestion — get the cooler upgrade kit from Circo for ~ $ 250, add a cal tenp gauge to # 3 cal and then drive the car in the flat country of Eastern NC. Roy’s take is that I will not be drawing much over 50 hp from the engine in normal driving, so the car may not overheat…unless I were to run it really, really hard and fast….???
The idea of only drawing part of the horsepower from the 200 hp available makes sense to me — ????Thoughts?Thanks – JackJack,
I’m not sure that will work with a fixed speed transmission, as compared to a variable drive setup like a CVT transmission which automatically adjusts the gear ratio as needed. Without a significant load on the engine (using a fraction of its potential), you reduce the demands and the heat generated.. certainly, but, you still have to run it at the RPMs necessary to generate the road speed you want with the transmission gearing you have.At that RPM, it’s going to produce whatever horsepower it produces at that RPM, and generate whatever heat that yields — it will run cooler than if you’re straining the engine, but how much cooler? How much horsepower is just being wasted?(The only variable there that you have control of is the fuel/air mixture at that RPM, which also impacts cooling. It gets complicated real quick… )This engine was designed to the maximum practical limits of the piston size and crank stroke you can put in a Type I engine case — without factoring in the desired torque curve for daily driving, cooling requirements, nor durability/reliability. It was never designed to strike a balance of cooling, flatter torque curve (drivability and responsiveness) nor durability and reliability…Even if you put a 5-speed (available, but very expensive) transmission in it, you’d still be producing far more power (and heat) than needed to sustain a 55 MPH or even 75 MPH speed in this 1200-1300 lb car… all the other HP is just being wasted, and you’re generating unwanted heat.HP = heat, in an internal combustion engine, and there’s no way to avoid it…Now, compound that with the design of the air-cooled VW engine which is designed to produce maximum cooling airflow at about the 4,000 RPM point. Even if you put a CVT transmission in it, so that you could “idle down the road” at 50-75 MPH — you’d still likely overheat because the engine would be turning so slow that the fixed ratio cooling fan couldn’t cool it… you’d also need a variable ratio cooling fan.KentT2014-01-08 11:50:10
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Jack, Kent’s suggestion of reducing compression ratio is relatively easy to do and inexpensive and would help to reduce temperatures. This can be done with varying thickness shims. There are two types of shims, one type goes between the cyl head and the jug and the other between the case and the jug. Doing a bit of math, you can figure out what combo you would need. I have some shims that are left over from when I cc’d my heads and adjusted compression ratio so that I could run regular gas, but they are for 1600 cc jugs.
Kent has suggested (when I was talking of running SU carbs on a VW) that I may be building a tractor engine rather than a sports car. Kent, you may be surprised that I have always been accused of being (as you said you were) a finesse guy vs brute force. Consequently, when I rebuilt my 1500sp engine I only put on 1600cc jugs. I absolutely love an engine that purrs. …and I have one. The only “fast” car that I ever had was a 911S and I did not really like it. Go figure. All my other toys were <2500cc with almost all <1600cc.Re VW engines, my experience is rather limited. I am willing to defer to Kent and Allen (and even Ed 🙂 and some of our other gurus) in case anything I say contradicts what they think.Roy, I’m not an engineer, just a shade-tree mechanic who’s paid for some expensive lessons learned long ago on VWs… and I find myself trying to catch up with the many changes that have taken place since I was last tinkering with them.
Bottom line for overall driveability and reliability of a VW engine: Spec the VW engine to produce the desired or needed power (HP and torque) in the 3,000 – 4,000 RPM range of the originally designed oiling and cooling system. Now, given that RPM range, what gearing do you want to run to put that power to the ground? How fast do you want to go? How fast will that gearing get you before aerodynamics start getting in the way… recalculate as needed, as far as you can afford. That’s basically how VW engineers did it, as their engines, transmissions, and body styles evolved over the years.A local speed shop used to have this sign behind the counter: Speed costs money – how fast do you want to go?
EDIT: Roy, your stock-sized shims won’t work for his 94mm jugs.KentT2014-01-08 13:08:27
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Kent,
I am an engineer but will go with empirical evidence and advice over theory every time. Please educate me here.2332cc driveability and reliability will suffer. No question.I do not understand your post above (@11:13). Certainly hp=heat. But I contend that an engine that is loafing is not producing the rated hp> It is not using as much fuel> It is therefore not producing as much heat.Picture this: Driving down the road at 60 mph. Fat dumb and happy. Now you encounter a hill. You need to go deeper into the throttle to climb the hill and maintain 60 mph. This of course, means more fuel, which means more heat which means more hp. At some point, he will overheat.All I was saying (or trying to say) was that if Jack doesn’t really get into the throttle, then putting a doghouse cooler (etc) on his 2332cc engine may produce enough cooling for normal everyday driving since this sort of driving does not require 200 hp. Now, if he wants to climb Pikes Peak and break the speed record, – well he might only get part way up before it’s all over.Yes, speed costs money. Jack’s not talking about going faster, but rather the same speed and I believe that his 2332cc would be producing approximately the same hp as my 1600cc going the same speed. (I realize that there would be some extra hp used on the 2332cc to overcome extra internal losses due to heavy duty valve springs, high lift cam, perhaps plus a few more inefficiencies.)Please understand that I am not trying to start an argument. I am trying to understand. What am I missing here??Roy’s right, Kent. The heat is mostly coming from fuel burned.* A motor turning 3500 rpm at 1/5 throttle is going to be producing closer to 1/5 its max heat.
Think of it another way: if RPM were the main factor, and the engine was set up to run, say 10,000 RPM max, would you count on generating only 1/5 heat at 2000 RPM, regardless of throttle position?
*Friction counts too, but not nearly as much.
Dang! I typed up a LONG post, only to get an error message and it not update… I won’t try recreating it, but summarize it, if I can, then copy it to my clipboard before posting, should it happen again…
An engine is an air pump, like an air compressor with a fuel and ignition system added to internally force those pistons up and down. It essentially converts BTUs of heat (from the fuel) into horsepower.At X RPM on a direct-drive coupling (manual transmission, clutch disengaged), it will pump Y amount of air through the engine unless you have forced induction (charger, etc.). The only variable is the air:fuel mixture, as I stated earlier. There are upper and lower practical limits to how lean or how rich that mixture can be, but in general terms the leaner the mixture the more heat produced because you get more complete combustion of the mixture.This dual-port doghouse oiling/cooling system was designed to produce 57 HP, yet the engine is now producing 200 HP — 350% more than it’s original design. Is the safety margin of the cooling system able to handle that difference? In my experience, it will handle about 120 HP or so, or roughly double the original design.Very few people have tried running 200 HP engines on the street. There’s not all that many engines that have been built that are capable of producing that HP, so though you’re not quite in uncharted territory, you are close to it…I suggest you guys do some very thorough research on Samba and try to see what you can find on how you might do this….I’ve been around guys who were running 120-125 HP engines on the street, but have no experience whether first-hand or by observation, of 200 HP engines on the street…Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Ed,
My point is that some significant volume of air:fuel mix is going to be burnt at at cruising speed, regardless of whether it is really needed to move the car down the road. This isn’t a new computer controlled direct-port EFI system that can selectively turn cylinders off an of, based on what the computer determines is needed, after reading ambient temperature, exhaust heat, engine RPM, engine vacuum, etc. Those cylinders will still be firing and producing heat, whether the power is needed or not… especially relevant since you can only vary the air:fuel mixture so far…Let’s use an analogy based on your username… lets take a bone-stock ’67 Nova, 6-cylinder, manual transmission and drop an L-88 427 crate motor in it (assuming no additional weight) — and retain the 6-cylinder radiator, tranny and rear end. How happy do you think that engine will be? How cool with it run at 60 mph? How happy do you think that owner will be, long term? How much more money will really need to be invested to make it streetable and reliable? Can it even be done?Think that maybe considering a 283, 302, 327 or 350 might be a better approach?Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Good points, Kent. Point of fact, I did try to run a 350 with the small 2-row radiator from the six for a minute, and it didn’t work. Neither did the next one, a V-8 replacement 3-row model with my home-made fan shroud (constructed from a Keep Right sign I liberated from a traffic island).
So you’re onto something for sure.
I still think that throttle position has a bit more to do with this than you’re allowing though, because the butterfly in the carb(s) dos indeed restrict the amount of air going in at part throttle, so as not to lean out the mix in the cylinders. It is true that every engine burns a bit more “loafing” at 2500 rpm than it would at idle (or even revving at 2500 rpm steady with the car out of gear), it is just not true that the RPM range dictates fuel burned or heat generated the way you describe.
That said, I think it’s safe to say that, as long as we’re playing with Jack’s car on Jack’s budget, we should advise him to try several different combinations of parts and report back which (if any) work.
The key thing is to get that sucker on the road!
edsnova2014-01-08 18:35:29
Hey folks,
It just happened to me too — I lost my really great, pithy and interesting reply that I spent 20 minutes typing —oh well, bottom line is I just went out and looked at the engine in the red BCW closely — it is an AH engine number, which translates into a ~1973 dual port, dual relief doghouse donor engine. Looking around the shroud, I found — guess what — ?? A doghouse with an oil cooler in it. Except that part of the cooler tin is missing so the cooler is visible from the left side of the engine bay.So once my flu is better, I’m going to reinstall all of the tin, wire up the temp and pressure gauges, add a cylinder temp gauge, and do an empirical analysis — i.e. drive the car and see how it runs (hot, cold, or just right!)So based on that experimentation, I’ll either have a fine red 200hp car at Carlisle this year, or a nice, sedate Yellow TDr named ABBY in tow instead.Thanks again for all of the input — still not sure exactly what’s what, bt then again I have flu medicine in my system and am not thinking too clearly today.
Picture is looking down on engine red hose is to the breather filter, fan shroud is at “top” of picture. Notice the missing tin on the air cooler doghouse. Does this matter?– Jack…by the way, does that look like a standard doghouse oil cooler or the larger type IV oil cooler? More investigation tomorrow — I’ll go count the rows of fins and report back…
That looks like a stock Type I doghouse cooler. Looks like you’re missing two pieces of sheet metal. There’s one that looks similar to this, for the stock shroud that directs the airflow down:
There, there’s a rectangular box with a slightly curved end that takes that air out, down through a hole in the flywheel tin, and out toward the ground, pointing that airflow slightly toward the rear of the car:
Adding those missing pieces will SIGNIFICANTLY improve the cooling of your engine. As it is, that hot air coming out of the oil cooler is most likely being sucked into the shroud’s cooling fan, and recirculated, over and over, getting hotter and hotter each time…Bad news is you’ll need to pull your engine to replace them… When you’ve done that, inspect the cooler and make sure it is sealed within the shroud. They used a piece of foam, similar to foam weathertripping between the sides of the oil cooler and the shroud, to force the cooling air through the cooler, and not whistling through the cracks around it… That air comes out pretty forcefully at 4,000 RPM and every little crack or opening is important. So, make sure the tin has new rubber seals there, and if necessary even use hi-temp silicone sealer to seal any small gaps.Looks like you’re missing the Hoover bit, also, but it’s hard to tell from that pic…KentT2014-01-08 20:39:42
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...OK, seeing as how you have the foundation of a stock doghouse cooler already, there’s a couple other things you can/should do, while you have the engine pulled;
1. See if it has the factory thermostat cooling vanes/flaps installed in the bottom of the shroud. Even if you don’t have a thermostat in it, you need these vanes to direct the airflow to the engine heads. Otherwise, you’re just dumping air into that large cavity around the heads and cylinders, and it will take the path of least resistance to get out of there. You can get the vanes, if needed, from the link I posted far above…. Be sure to use the spring to keep them fully open. I’d recommend you get/run the full thermostat and vane setup, if necessary. It helps the engine warm up, get the oil up to operating safely and quickly, and the stock thermostat is fail-safe. If it fails, it should fail in the full-open position, and the spring should keep those vanes/flaps in the full open position.2. Check to see how the tin is sealed up, underneath the engine, since you’re running J-tubes or a full-header system. The area behind that exhaust tube running from the front cylinders should be entirely boxed in and closed, like this:
That does two things. It keeps the exhaust pipe heat away from the pushrod tubes and the rest of the engine, and it keeps the airspeed of the air flowing down through the cylinders and heads where it should be, while forcing that hot air to exit out the rear. Normally, the heater box serves as the outside edge of that cool air channel. But, you don’t have heater boxes. If needed you can get what’s called “VW industrial tin” — which was used for VW engines running as stationary powerplants — to box in that space. Here’s what they look like before installation:
3. Finally, pull the spark plug wires on one side of the engine, and peer back behind the intake manifolds, and see if you have the cylinder head air vanes. If the factory head tin has been replaced with aftermarket tin, they’ll be missing. You can buy those missing pieces from Awesome Powdercoating also. Here’s what you’re looking to confirm is there:If all those things are done, you’ll have your factory cooling system back to stock — minus sealing the engine compartment around the engine. I can’t recall if they’d even attempted that — as a minimum you want to seal around the rear (pulley) end, to keep hot air around the exhaust from being sucked into the car. Since you’re running without heaterboxes (which tended to insulate/isolate the heat from cylinders 1 and 3, I ‘d try to seal up any gaps along the sides also. Remember, the doghouse fan pulls 25 cubic feet per second of air at 4,000 RPM. That air will come from the path of least resistance, whether it be in over the tranny, or up over hot exhaust pipes…At least you have a starting point for evaluating, with only minor work needed to start your experimentation…Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Wow, great post. This will give me a laundry list to check/fix re: cooling tin. By the way, when I made and installed a Hoover Bit on my Yellow Fiber Fab II (Abby) I was able to take off the engine cover and then lift the shroud off/on with enough clearance to actually not have to pull the engine.
I’ll have to see if the extended rear end on the BCW gives me enough clearance to pull the shroud without pulling the engine. So stay tuned.Unless you see a reason to pull the engine other than not having the clearance to pull the shroud and fix the doghouse cover with the engine in place, I’d probably leave the engine installed…Again Kent, thanks for your advice. I’ll be a fanatic in plugging air leaks…Later,JackYou may not be able to do that with dual carbs. If you can do without pulling the engine, go for it. Once you’ve pulled a few VW engines, though, you can have them out in 15-30 minutes, easily, and then you can work on them on a bench or table — if you can get Roy or someone to help you lift it.
4 bolts/nuts, throttle cable, fuel line, and a few wires is all it takes to disconnect the engine… remove the rear bumper and splashpan, and you can wheel it out the back on your floor jack, with the dual carbs still installed — similar to an old VW bus. You don’t have to remove those carbs/manifolds and drop it out the bottom, like you would have to do on a Bug. It’s much easier — especially when you re-install it that way. The most challenging part is keeping it balanced on the jack as you wheel it out and in — a transmission jack or motorcycle jack works great for this.BTW, I thought of one other piece of tin that might be missing — at the rear of the car on cylinders 2 and 4. There are short pieces of tin that bolt underneath the breastplate tin to the bottom edges of the head tin at the rear. These essentially extend the head tin down, making the cooling air flow over that side of the cylinder. These are often left off, over the years.Here’s a pic of the one for #4, to give you an idea of what one looks like. Again, confirm one is there on each side:
Shucks, while you’re confirming that you have all the pieces, and nothing is missing, look up above the pushrod tubes, and make sure there are one of two possible types of tins there. The first type, stock for Type I engines, looks like this:They are a wedge-in fit between the bottom center two case studs on each side, below and between the cylinders, above the pushrod tubes:
Those indentations you see in each of the upright pieces is where the case stud goes. These sit between the cylinders, underneath them to force the cooling air to wrap around the cylinders before exiting, cooling the bottoms of the cylinders. Without them (or the type shown below) the bottoms of the cylinders would run hot…Instead of those, you might see Type III engine tin used on the bottom of the cylinders, often called “super cool tins” — they look like this:
Note that one of these would are installed under both cylinders on each side — they sit on all four lower case studs on each side. This is a complete pair. For example, the one on the left would be sitting above the pushrod tubes with an opening pointing down right underneath each cylinder. These essentially wrap around the entire bottom of both cylinders, forcing the cooling air to flow through the fins on each cylinder, rather than through the space between the cylinders, and keep that airflow contained in close to the cylinder for optimum cooling. The air dumps out through those rectangular openings. These were used on the higher-hp engines with dual carbs (or fuel injection) in the Fastback/Squareback Type IIIs. Many people like to use them on Type I engines because they cool better. However, I doubt you have these with your oversize jugs (trimming would’ve been required to fit the larger cylinders), but you need one type or the other. If you have these super cool tins, the lower engine tin at the top of this post is not necessary… This super cool tin will force that cooling air to wrap around the cylinder and cool the sides and bottom.Surely whoever built your engine installed one type or another of these absolutely crucial bottom cylinder tins, but after I saw the missing pieces to the doghouse cooler, I wouldn’t take anything for granted…KentT2014-01-09 00:29:35
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Ran across this on Samba, and thought I’d bring it back here for future reference. This is the complete stock engine tin set for a dual-port engine with doghouse oil cooler — all the way to the pieces that go around the heat riser tubes for the intake manifold. Shroud and fan are not pictured.
Pictures in the bottom row are for older, non-fresh air engines.
KentT2014-01-11 19:30:04
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...I converted my 1970 vw 1600sp to doghouse cooling. worked very well! reduced the engine temps to well under 160 even on hot days. before I was running upwards of 225 with my oil light nice and bright at idle! The donor engine I use happened to be a 1975 fuel injected rig so I got the “vortex ring” as well! I don’t know how much effect IT has.
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