- This topic has 25 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 1 month ago by
.
-
Posts
-
My new tires, 165-80/15s are only 3/4 inch taller than my old ones (previously had 145s), but scrape my fenders a tiny bit when I turn either way. Any recommendations to raise the front end and inch or so, like do I have to replace the shocks with ones a little taller or is there any other way to do this? Any recommendations for a different shock?
Are you running an adjustable beam yet? If not, it’s probably time to either buy a new beam with the adjusters in it already and pull most of the small leaves out when you reassemble, or buy the weld-in adjusters and have a competent shop install them for you, and do the same en re the springs.
The adjustable beam gives you control of ride height. If the beam is not adjustable then chances are near 100 percent the builder simply cut the lower tube, had two 120-lb people stand on the front, and welded it back to set the ride height. There’s a whole thread on why this is sub optimal. Several, actually.
Of course, you can also put coil-overs in. But that will make the car even more dangerous than it already is, handling wise, and will also make it ride hella rough.
Ed nailed it. If you need to adjsut ride height, you need an adjustable beam.
Shocks control control jounce and rebound. They do not control ride height.
Do not put coil-overs on a VW suspension. Those German engineers had it right the way they designed it.
PMOSSBERG40797.9678125
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
How about air shocks? It could stiffen suspension some depending on how much air you have to put in them but it could be just enough to get the job done and not suffer any ride comfort or safety. Cheaper than an adjustable beam and a lot less work. Just a thought.
Just curious why you went with a taller tire?
Just my humble opinion…and I’m gonna sound redundant here…but the risk of being annoying never stopped me before.
The VW suspension works. And has for 60 years.
Stock oil-filled shocks.
Gas shocks, coil-overs and air shocks, all you’ll get is a harder ride.
If anything, our cars need to have the front suspension softened, by removing some or all of the small leaves in the torsion tube. But even when you do that…stock shocks.
Pink MG wrote up a great front suspension thread. Search for it. It’s good reading.
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
Paul,
To add a little diversity to the discussion – I took the small leaves out of my
front beam and then added coil overs to both the front and the rear.
My car rides great – then again I am a bit of a widebody ( working on that )
so others my differ. It tracks great and rides smooth and does not bounce
around.
I did have air shocks in the rear for a while and they did OK, but would
always leak down – had to replace them when I could never get it completely
fixed.
The tire dealer I use suggested that size because that is widely available, is stock VW, 1/3 the price of 145’s, and only 3/4″ taller so I didn’t think there would be any problem.
I get a gentle scrape of either fender from the top of the tire when making sharp turns now.
Looking at the suspension underneath, how does removing springs from inside the beams raise up the fenders an inch or so? It seems like a taller shock would push down on that lower beam and change it’s angle to increase the distance of the tire from the upper shock support, as opposed to getting a shorter shock which looks like it would raise the tire.
You could also go nuts and raise the body on the frame by shims, or even sand off or grind down the inside of the fender well for more clearance if you felt so inclined.Thanks schu.
Shocks do not control ride height. A taller shock will simply compress when you settle the car back down onto her tires.
Removing leaves is meant to improve your ride. Our cars are much lighter over the front axle than a srtock VW Beetle. Removing leaves softens the suspension, vastly improving your ride. Instead of a rock hard suspension hammering over bumps, the suspension can actually work again.
Removing leaves will actually lower the front end somewhat. Which bring us back to the adjustable beam. That is the way to control ride height.
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
I’m sorry but I’m missing something here. I have read these threads and probably can understand about softening up the suspension’s reaction to bumps etc, and as an offshoot to that, better handling, by removing leaves or springs inside the beams, but I want to increase the height of the fenders in relationship to the height of the tires (or the axle) to increase clearance between the two. If removing leaves will lower the front end somewhat, I assume you are talking about the frame in relation to the axle height from the ground. That will not change the height of the shock in relation to the inside of the fenders, that is, increase the distance, it would decrease it, bringing them closer by lowering the body. The adjustable beam just adjusts down, right? So the whole car and frame will slope forward, or down. Now tell me how to increase the distance from top of tire to underside of fender, i.e., raise the body, lower the wheels in relation to the fenders. By looking at the beam and the way it articulates, it seems like (if you are looking at the left wheel), if you lower the front end by rotating counterclockwise the angle of the arm attaching to the axle, making it more horizontal, you are closing the distance from the top of the shock mounting to the fender and giving even less clearance, which is the opposite of what I need to do. Tell me how to increase the clearance between tire and fender, how to raise the body height 1/2 -3/4″ higher than the tops of my tires.
Can someone draw a pic or post a pic of before and after of how this adjustable beam works or what it looks like before and after taking leaves out? That would go a long way for me to understand how this works and what it will accomplish.It took a while for all this to make sense to me as well,but it finally sunk in.
As you have already said,when you remove leaves to soften the ride ,it also lowers the ride height.This means that the fenders are closer to the wheels.The adjustible beam has adjusters located at the center of the beam that allow you to raise[adjust] the ride height WITHOUT effecting the softness or hardness of the ride.
Since your tires are rubbing the fenders,I am almost sure that the suspension has already been modified in some manner to lower the ride height. Some leaves may have been removed or the beams may have been cut and rotated ,and rewelded in the rotated position, or both leaf removal AND cut/rotating may have been done. I say this because most VW based TDs tend to sit high in front unless some suspension changes are made.The top of the shock mount or its relationship of the body is not what needs to change.That is a constant.What gives more or less space between the wheel and fender is the travel [movement] of the suspension .
Hope this helps to clear this up for you,if not check the links in the suspension posts already on the forum.
Larry Murphy40799.3978935185
Two separate issues.
Regardless of whether or not you decide to soften the suspension, the adjustable beam is used to raise or lower the car. Each tube of the beam is cut and an insert is welded in. The insert has a lock bolt on it. You loosen that bolt and can rotate the insert up or down to adjust the height of the car.
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1783
The “spring rate” (in VW’s case, the torsion bar rate) will not change, so your ride quality will not change.
The upper shock mount does not move in relation to the body.
I brought up the leaf removal because you are going to be “into” the front end anyway. I thought you might want to learn about the total process before you started the project.
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
Since no one has mentioned it, I’ll throw a wrench in all this and ask…might you have dropped spindles on your front end? Some people install dropped spindles rather than go to all the expense of an adjustable beam. If you do in fact have dropped spindles, the simple fix would be to install the stock spindles to return to the stock height. Then remove the front beam small torsion bars. Just something else to check.
newkitman40799.4047453704
Allen Caron
VW based 53MGTD - "MoneyPenny"
"If one thing matters, everything matters" - from the book The ShackDropped spindles lower the car 2 and a half inches.
mrlmd ran into trouble when he put new tires on the car.
I’m betting no on the dropped spindles.
mrlmd – these pics should help you determine if you have stock or dropped spindles:
Dropped Spindles:
http://www.jbugs.com/store/graphics/00000001/Drop-Spindles-B all-Joint-Disc-Brake-22-2951.jpg
Stock Spindles:
http://www.jbugs.com/store/graphics/00000001/EMPI-Stock-Ball -Joint-Spindles-22-2952.jpg
PMOSSBERG40799.4929513889
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
OK, I’ve spent a few hours on the internet and now I see how that adjustable beam works, basically by rotating the torsion bar leaves inside the beam. That seems like an awful lot of work and a little expense to do, or go for a greater expense and buy one already made.
My beam, which I assume is stock, has a screw midpoint in the upper and lower beams, which I would imagine is to just hold the leaves in place and would not allow for any adjustment to rotate them, right?I have also seen spindles that can raise the front end, but by 3″, which is too high, and they cost almost as much as a new adjustable beam.
For the time being until I figure this out, I may just lower my tire pressure to 30 lbs. or less
to both soften the ride and give me a tiny bit more clearance when
turning the wheels.Thanks guys, and like Arnold said, “I’ll be back”.
mrlmd40799.535775463
Yes, the screw you see just holds the leaves in place.
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
mrlmd;
now on each side of that (grub)screw,is there any evidence of a weld.If there is your beam has been cut and turned.The area on each side should be smooth.However the tube could have been cut at any point between the main towers.Check it over real close a factory weld will be clean smooth and small,and look almost continuous.Hope this helps.
You can also check craigslist or your local pic and pull for a new/used stock beem,should find one for under $75,only 4 bolts to swap it out.
I think the cheapest and simplist way to go if you are looking for that is to buy another set of tires. Go back to the 145’s that were on there in the first place. Or go to a 165-45 or 50 series tire. Just a thought. Mid America Motorworks sells them.
Mrimd,
Might be easy to order a set of adjustable coilovers from JC Witney and give
that a try – if it dies not work the way you want send them back for a full
credit. It must be noted that I removed all the small leaves in the front of
mine so the ride is not harsh w/ the coilovers.
I was told by the manager/owner of the place where I bought my tires, (where they do a lot of mechanical and engine work also, and on a lot of VW’s, rebuilding them), that the four linkage arms on the ends of the beam can be removed and since each arm is on a spline, they can then be rotated a notch or two when putting them back on into the splines on the beam, and that then raises (or lowers) the car that way. Has anyone heard of that? It’s only labor, no parts. Apparently they do something like that on the rear every once in a while, but he said it also can be done on the front. You just have to make sure obviously that you rotate the same number of splines on the 4 arms so the car is level.
mrlmd40826.9818981482I’ve heard a lot of things about VWs in my 30+ years but have never heard about this one. I know the splines are in the rear on the sprong plates and there are inner and outer splines but have never heard of it on the front beam. Sounds sort of like what you’d do with an adjustable beam rather than a stock front beam. The traiiling arms fit onto the 10 leafs in the beams and you tighten up the Allen screw and torque the nut. Not saying he’s wrong…just never heard of this one.
Allen Caron
VW based 53MGTD - "MoneyPenny"
"If one thing matters, everything matters" - from the book The ShackI’ve never heard that one.
The trailing arms have squared cut outs to fit the ends of the spring leaves that extend out of the torsion tubes.
And it’s not what you do with an adjustable beam either. with the adjustable beam. The traling arms don’t move. One of these:
…is welded into the center of each torsion tube and is used to rotate the entire package of leaves inside the tubes.
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
Both Allen and Paul are correct. The only axle with splines is the rear.
The front axle consists of an upper and lower tube. Inside the tube is a series of flat torsion leaves that go from one end of the beam to the other and go into the trailing arms. With Link/King Pin Beams the torsion leaves actually go completely through the trailing arms and can be seen on the ends. With Ball Joint Beams the leaves can’t be seen from the ends. The leaves are held in place with grub screws. One in the center of the beam and one on each trailing arm. The suspension actuates by twisting the torsion arms which are held flat in the center. When you put an adjuster in the center replacing the single grub screw you can rotate the adjuster up and down to the ride height you prefer. If you adjust the ride at it’s highest point you often stiffin the ride to an uncomfortable level which is why some people remove a leaf or two. Hope this answers your question. If the mechanic wants to adjust splines on the front axle I’d find another mechanic. Just sayin!
Marc–just one more thing: 30 lbs tire pressure is WAY too much in a TD replica, front or back, and especially for the front of a VW-based TD replica.
Your front tires should be inflated to between 14 and 20 lbs, max.
Makes a HUGE difference is ride quality and handling.
But–you say–modern tires need 28 lbs as normal inflation and I’ll ruin them with 15 lbs.
Quite to the contrary. Turns out that modern tires are made to handle modern loads. Modern cars weigh tons and tons more than older cars generally, and cosmic orders of magnitude more than our cars in particular.
Nothing else on the road puts less weight over the front wheels that a Bug-based TD replica. You need to adjust the tire pressure to match the load on it, which is going to be on the order of 250-325 pounds per tire. (Perspective: a new Toyota Corolla, for example, weighs in at about 2700 lbs, with at
least 60 percent of that over the front wheels, meaning there’s about
800 pounds on each front wheel. A Toyota Corolla! Has Three times! The front end weight! YOU HAVE!)Same thing applies to the rear tires. Whatever is not up front must be over the rear tires. Best thing is to weigh it on a truck scale but a good guess on a Bug-based TD is one-third front, two-thirds rear. So your back tires will be seeing something less than 600 lbs on each of them. 25 lbs pressure should do nicely. Less might be better.
Tire shop guys mostly don’t know this. I got new tires and alignment done, and they’re a good shop, and the monkeys still filled ’em all up to 36 lbs. I drove Bridget home wondering why she was riding so rough and trying to understeer on the turns. Took 18-20 lbs out of the fronts and 11 out of the backs and life was good again.
Do the same. It’ll improve your life.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.