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I tried a search on the web site, and I must be dense because I either get 1700 entries for “oil” or zero entries for “oil change” or even words like “synthetic.” Not sure what I’m doing wrong, so please forgive me if this duplicates previous advice.
My oil was supposedly changed and fresh when my former incompetent mechanic-cheater installed an oil filter about 1-1/2 years ago … but less than 300 miles ago. When I checked yesterday, it was really yucky looking. I am sure this is the result of how poorly the engine was running previously. Up until a few months ago, the idiot had the spark plug wires reversed and the throttle had been set up so it would never go down to idle — I think deliberately, to cover up the “miss.” My friend fixed the throttle linkage, and my new mechanic got everything connected properly and tuned up and running good, but then last week I discovered that the original mechanic hadn’t installed the heat riser properly on the passenger side, and hot exhaust was blowing out from there and no doubt contributing to overheating the engine and who knows what else (the new mechanic didn’t do that, but he didn’t notice it, either). I fixed that problem myself. Now the car runs just great, but just that 300 miles of running like S*** was enough to foul up my oil to the point it needs changing, and after 1-1/2 years I suppose it needs changing anyway.
Since I don’t trust the local mechanics here, I want to do my own oil change. This is Las Vegas, and we get temps from 30 in winter to 120 in summer, so I was thinking of using a 20W50 synthetic oil like Castrol GTX Magnatec. I was wondering what you all thought of that choice for oil, both as to weight and type. I don’t mind paying extra for a few quarts of synthetic, but Muir scares me. Ditto for Rob & Dave. They all say not to use detergent oil right after non-detergent oil, that this is a sure way to have to rebuild your engine. Well, great. Looking at Advance Auto Parts website, it looks like non-detergent oil is rare and not available in a 20W50 anyway, but I still don’t know what I’ve got in there now and so maybe I will be blowing up my engine … ? And I don’t even know how to tell whether I’m buying detergent or non-detergent in the store. Owning this car has really made me feel ignorant as hell.
I also had several questions about the oil change itself. My car has an oil filter that was installed using a hose that’s a couple of feet long. I wonder whether there would be anything special about draining and filling the oil in this situation. Muir says I need 2.6 quarts, but I assume that I’ll need a few more ounces for the filter and hose. Would 3 quarts be enough? Also, other than filling the new filter with fresh oil before screwing it on again, do I need to worry about the hoses being empty right after the oil change? Do I need to try to put oil directly into the hoses, or will the pump fill the empty hoses fast enough that the engine will be okay?
My .02 cents worth. I used to run a small can of Gumout oil cleaner in my engine for about 5 minutes to dissolve the sludge out of the oil and internal ports. Then I’d drain the oil and change the filter before filling with fresh oil. Not sure if they still make Gumout for the oil system anymore since they came out with the synthetic blends.
I live in middle Georgia and our summer temps run mid to high 90s and some low 100s on a regular basis during the summer months. Even when stationed in Mississippi which has similar temps, I ran 20W 50 Castrol GTX all the time and its my preferred oil. I’m also not sure if any oil is non-detergent anymore. Castro GTX 20W50 is a good oil but be sure there is some ZDT in it. Its better for our lifters etc.
Roy uses a good oil too. Hopefully he’ll chime in.
Allen Caron
VW based 53MGTD - "MoneyPenny"
"If one thing matters, everything matters" - from the book The ShackI’d stay with 10/30. VW engines have a by-pass pressure valve for oil flow. I’ve red the 20/50 is too heavy when cold, causes a high pressure situation and triggers the by-pass valve when you really don;t want it triggered.
Re: your oil lines….I’d fill the engine with the normal 2.5 quarts. Run it for a minute to get it circulating. Then check the level and add as needed.
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
If you are really concerned about the oil in your engine being gunky (if it’s not a word, it ought to be), why not plan on a quick 2 changes? Warm the engine, drain it and put in some 0-20 and let it idle and run in the driveway (no load) for a while to flush the engine. Then drain it again and put in your preferred brand.
Read Paul’s post carefully. If you use heavier oil, then even when the engine is “warmed” you risk bypassing the oil cooler. Not good. The oil to the cooler is only allowed when the oil pressure is below X?? -psi. Can’t remember – think it’s about 45 psi. Look it up. With no oil through the cooler engine temps climb quickly.
I run 10W30 VR1 Valvoline Racing Oil with ZDDP (ZDDP is a zinc additive to help preserve the life of flat tappet lifters and the camshaft). If one can maintain oil pressure (thumb rule 1opsi per 1000rpm) then I prefer 10W30. Less load on the engine, quicker lubrication on start up when most wear occurs.
Oil technology has brought about numerous changes. When your engine was first put into production, only single weight oils existed. Take advantage of these changes.
Synthetic vs Dino oil? I don’t think the dust has settled on this subject. I’m 75 years old and I like old cars. I use Dino oil. But, I probably average less than a year and certainly less than 1000 miles per change (I don’t have a filter).
As you can see, there’s no “one best answer” on oil, whether for these old VWs or any other car. My thoughts:
1. Roy is correct that the oil pressure relief valves are set to bypass at 42-45 psi. Running too thick of a blend can be counterproductive, bypassing the cooler and cause the engine to run hotter. Since you are running a remote filter, you also increase the risks of oil leaks from those hoses and fittings. I blew an engine once by blowing the oil line to a remote filter and cooler in cold weather (Christmas morning, no less – the Grinch stole Christmas!) and for that reason alone will no longer use a remote filter or cooler unless I use the high-dollar braided metal lines and screw on fittings – no more rubber lines and hose clamps for me. I do use and recommend the CB Performance Maxi-pump oil pumps with screw on filters – the only brand that I’ll recommend because it’s a high quality 26mm pump. Cheap pumps have loose tolerances and erratic oil pressure while anything larger than 26mm will produce too high of pressure and bypass also. If you see consistent oil pressures above 40- 45 psi, you’re actually “working against yourself.”
2. I typically recommend people start with a high quality 10w40 synthetic blend (Castrol is also my peferred brand, like Allen). I recommend synthetic only because it clings better to the surfaces after you shut the engine off, and provides better lubrication on engine start, before the oil pressure builds up. Most experts agree that at least 50% (perhaps as much as 75%) of engine wear occurs in the first few seconds after engine start – in that very brief interval before the idiot light goes off. Again, this wear cain be exacerbated with a remote filter or cooler – because depending on where and how it is mounted some oil can drain out of those lines back into the crankcase. On startup those lines must be pumped full of oil before pressure builds up and starts lubricating the cam, crank and rod bearings. Cam bearings and the cam itself are typically the first internal things to start wearing out in a VW engine, in addition to piston rings. Piston rings are easily replaced during a rebuild/refresh, along with a valve job – but you must split the engine case to replace the cam and cam bearings – a major rebuild. Rod and crank bearings seldom fail due simply to wear… they typically fail only due to low oil levels, contamination, severe overheating or some type of catastrophic failure elsewhere, such as a dropped valve. But, synthetic oil provides better lubrication on startup to all these internal wear points.
3. In a hot climate like where you live, I personally don’t think 10w30 is thick enough for summer driving. It is a good wintertime oil – but these TDrs likely won’t get driven a whole lot in the winter. Summer time protection is the primary concern. Like Allen, I have successfully run 20w50, but only when I lived in South Texas or South Florida – and as I recall, I used and adjustable oil bypass spring (are they even available any more?) and I have always run a thermostat and vanes to make sure the engine warms up quickly, and maintains an oil operating temp of about 180-230 or so.
My LONG 2 cents, with my rationale. Your mileage may vary…
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Adventures in Oil Changing …
I am totally inexperienced at this mechanic thing but my luck with “professionals” has been so bad that I feel like I have to do things myself. I ended up selecting 10W40 Mobil 1 and bought a bottle of Rislone oil additive with ZDDP.
The aftermarket oil filter was put on by the first idiot mechanic, so I should have expected problems. It attaches with two hoses and has an aluminum mount for the filter itself. Apparently the guy failed to oil up the rubber gasket on the old filter and then used an air wrench to tighten it, because there was no way I could get that (&*$& off with my filter wrench. Poking a screwdriver through the filter made a fine mess and ripped the metal instead of turning the filter. Finally I removed the entire assembly (it uses hoses) and got it down on the ground where I could apply serious pressure. I crushed the *&%& thing so I could get slip-joint pliers over it and held the aluminum fitting with a wrench and my foot. With serious superhuman strength, finally it gave up and came off. The filter says right on it to apply oil to the gasket first and then hand-tighten and then put a tug to tighten it. If that idiot had just followed the instructions it would have saved me a couple of hours of aggravation.
Now the billet oil sump plate, which is really my question today. I bought this to prevent drips in my garage, and was glad I did, because sure enough, the old strainer plate was kind of warped at each hole. I cleaned all the gunk off the engine case, then fit the gasket to the plate and the strainer, and the gasket on top of the strainer. In doing so, I applied gasket sealer to everything and fit the whole thing onto the studs. However, when I tried to bolt it down using the cap nuts and the little copper washers, I couldn’t get the nuts to thread onto the studs. The studs aren’t long enough for the nuts to grip if I use the supplied copper washers. So I gave up on the copper washers and applied “oil-resistant gasket maker” and the nuts went on and all seems well … BUT
- I tightened the plate at least three times in the first couple of hours. I’m not overtightening but every time the nuts seem to be a little loose. Now, after waiting a couple more hours, they hardly tighten further. Am I correct that this was due to the gaskets compressing? Nothing seems “stripped” and right now they all seem pretty good and tight.
- After the first two of these re-tightenings, I thought maybe there had been enough compression of the gaskets that the copper washers would now go on, so I took one nut off and tried again. Nope. I just can’t get the nut to catch the threads if the washer is on. Are the washers absolutely necessary on the studs?
- At this point I just have the nuts on with the “oil resistant gasket maker.” I plan to wait 24 hours for the stuff to cure before putting the oil in. I am hoping the oil won’t be seeping out through the studs. If this is likely, what would anyone suggest? I still have an opportunity to set things right if someone sees a disaster lurking.
John, you are correct that the oil filter only needs about 1/4-1/2 turn after oiling the rubber gasket. Any tighter than that is only necessary from an “idiot mechanic”.
WRT your problems with the oil drain plate: I do not use any gasket sealer at all and am bone dry underneath. Try threading the nuts onto the studs without the plate. If they seem to “catch” then you might want to insure that all old gasket material has been removed and you don’t have a doubled or tripled thickness preventing your nuts from engaging the stud threads. It is possible that the studs have become threaded into the sump too far. You could do the old “two nuts trick” and back them out a bit. Absolutely do use those tiny crushable copper washers to prevent leakage and when you remove the plate, always use new copper washers and gaskets. You should not have to use any gasket maker or sealant. These nuts do not need to be super tight. There is a torque spec which I forget, but I think it is in inch-pounds. Not much. I usually tighten mine with a spin tight screwdriver looking “wrench” to the “just right” spec.
Check out “Rob and Dave’s Air Cooled VW Pages at http://www.vw-resource.com
They cover just about all the usual VW problems you’re likely to encounter. And as Roy has said, use those copper crush washers. Also, as recommended by Rob and Dave, if you don’t have a drain plug in the sump plate replace it with one that does have the drain. It lessens the number of times you have to mess with the little crush washers and cap screws.
Allen Caron
VW based 53MGTD - "MoneyPenny"
"If one thing matters, everything matters" - from the book The ShackThe nuts catch the threads WITHOUT the washers. Given the thickness of the washers, the nuts can’t be more than a millimeter away from catching the threads WITH the washers. I have an extra set of nuts, so I’m going to try putting the old nuts in a vise and filing the open end down so that the threads inside the nut are closer to the end than they are now. Maybe then they’ll catch the threads on the studs WITH the washers. I don’t think there has been a single thing I’ve ever done to this car that didn’t require some kind of special fitting, filing, cutting, adjustment, etc. Sigh.
You can adjust the length of the studs to gain as n addition 2-3 threads. Try to find a couple of regular nuts that fit the studs where the oil plate mounts. (Factory nuts are “acorn style” with the bottom of the nut covered with a dome to protect the threads on the stud.)
Screw two regular nuts onto a stud, up snug against each other, without touching the bottom of the engine block. Hold the top nut with one wrench, while using another wrench to tighten the bottom nut up tight against the top nut, jamming them together, and locking them.
You should now be able to carefully put a wrench on the top nut, and carefully unscrew the stud from the engine block to gain two or three more threads sticking out so that you can bolt on the thicker adapter plate. Those studs just screw into the engine block like a bolt does. Make sure that you leave several threads still screwed into the engine block, or you risk stripping the threads in the engine block – the block is aluminum alloy and easily stripped. Do NOT overtightened the nuts on the plate or you will strip those threads and pull the stud out of the block.
Ideally you would replace the original studs with new ones that are longer by the difference in thickness between the original plate and the new one (at least that much longer). Though they look better, and don’t leak as much (with the stud being covered and sealed by the acorn head) I don’t really like acorn nuts. Far too often I’ve tightened them to the point that the stud is jammed against the inside of the acorn, and the next time I try to remove the nut, it screws the stud out instead. The threads in the block are easily worn and stripped if you are frequently unscrewing the stud instead of removing a nut. Regular nuts don’t cause those issues. Personally, I like longer studs, screwed far enough into the block that you can feel them sticking out on the inside – then secured with Locktite. If the studs are sticking out on the inside 1/4″ or so, it doesn’t hurt anything. I’d rather have too many threads than too few…
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Ok John, I am really going to confuse you now. I live in Tampa, Fl, and the temps here in the summer average about 93 degrees, maybe hotter. (So says the local weather channel). When I restored Herbie 1 year ago, I had my 1968 VW engine rebuilt by “Fisher Buggies”. They only work on VW’s, and specifically build Racing VW engines, and build Dune Bugies Frames with regular VW engines, for the none racer. When they rebuilt my engine, they used Castor GTX 20-50 oil. That is what they recommend I use, and to change the oil every 3000 miles. I usually change it every 2500 miles, and clean the strainer as well. During the engine rebuild, added an extra deep sump, and a newer style Engine Cooling Dog House, and a newer larger style oil cooler. I also run stright exhaust pipes, with abestos exhaust wrap. I now put in about 3 1/2 qts of oil, upon every oil change. I used a LED Heat Sensor hand held temperature reader, and aimed it on the crank case, just behind the crank belt pulley, and I got a reading of 285 degrees. This was after about a 40 minute drive, in 80 degree (mid Spring) weather. I was quite surprised that the temp was that low. The VW shop here says, engines start to over heat at 320 degrees. I have researched several “Oil Articles” on the VW Samba Web Site, and the over all opinion is not to use Synethic Oil. Many of the guys in warmer climates also said they used Castor GTX 20-50. So this is my 2 cents opinion that I got from VW only mechanics, and long term VW users on Samba.
Dave
Lakeland, Florida, where we drive Topless every dayFYI. I felt that extending the studs was not viable because I have no experience doing that, nor do I have a lift, or extra gaskets. I did everything from under the car while laying on the floor, and there are just some limits to what you can do like that. Instead I filed a little bit off the bottom of each cap nut so it was a shorter reach to the threads. As modified, the cap nuts reached the threads with the washers on and went on fine and everything worked as intended. This is probably not a “good” way to do it, but it seems to have worked, because I filled the car with Mobil 1 pure synthetic in the 10W40 weight, and drove it 30 miles, and after two days I have no leaks out of the sump plate. Oddly, now it seems to seep very slightly from the place where the oil filter hoses attach to the engine, which never leaked before and which I never touched, either. I wrenched those nuts a bit tighter. Perhaps next oil change I will change that gasket as well, but after wrenching the nuts, right now the seep seems to be so minimal that it might actually have just been spillover from somewhere.
I think that fixing the exhaust leak also solved the overheating issue, or at least reduced it. The last time I drove the car before fixing the exhaust leak, it was 110 and I drove 20 miles and I was getting at least 230 degrees or more on my oil temp gauge. After fixing the exhaust leak (actually, the heat riser tube leak at the exhaust), I drove about 30 miles yesterday with lots of stop signs, and the hottest the engine got was 210 or less. Yes, the ambient temperature was “only” 90, but I don’t think 20 degrees less ambient temps would translate to 20 degrees less in engine temps. And the car is running great … finally.
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