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I am still working on a solution to mounting these wheels and would like opinions. The stiffeners on the inside of the brake drums are a bit wider than the 14mm VW tapped holes in them. Enough so that you can almost drill a 7/16″ hole alongside since it would be on a smaller 4 1/2″ (114.3mm) pattern of my adapters. (Increasing the hole pattern in the adapter to 130mm results in interference with the inside of the wire wheels when mounted.) I have decided to go ahead with the adapter adapter method that Mike and I have talked about but there is an added expense that I would like to avoid.
I have been scared away from welding on the brake drums. But, what do you think of tapping 7/16-20 holes on a 4-1/2″ or 114.3mm x4 pattern inside the 130mm pattern. One can rotate the pattern slightly (about 10 degrees) making it slightly askew of the 14mm holes so as to not intersect them. This would result in about 80% of the new 7/16″ holes being on the raised stiffner and sort of straddling it with about 20% falling on the unstiffened part of the brake drum. My gut tells me that this would not signifantly weaken the drum since the new holes would be closer the axle than the old 130mm holes. The spider like stiffeners are thicker as you get towards the axle.This would of course, not increase the stance giving it less of a hot rod look. It would allow changing back to the steel wheels also, but I am not sure that the drum would not be weakened too much to safely do this in the “old” 4x130mm holes.What are your thoughts?Roy,
This sounds a little like what I did except I just had the hub/adapter drilled to 4x130MM – 4 plus years now w/o a issue. I do think my hub might be bigger then yours and is not a option to you?DaleAlmost finished with my wire wheel project. I have the new wires installed on MiGi with 4 185HR14″. These tires are a bit too large and I would prefer 175/80/14’s. The 185’s on the wire wheels are shot and I need some new rubber: I’ll be out another $500. I still have the 165/80/15″ tires that were on the old steel wheels and they are like new. But they are 15″ tires and my wires are 14″. It would be more period correct if I had 15″ wires and maybe cheaper to change to 15″ wires and install my old rubber than buy 14″ tires. If any of you has or knows of:
4 or 5,15“48 or 60 spoke 4-1/2 to 5-1/2″ widepainted or chrome wire wheelsfor sale cheap,I would appreciate your dropping me a PM.These wheels would have to be somewhere along the east coast between NC and NY else shipping charges make this option prohibitive. (I am taking a trip from NC to NY at the end of July for a family reunion and would pick up.)Roy,
what route did you go to attache the adapters to the drums? We need some photos here. I and I am sure many others have been following this project for awhile. However you worked this out ,I am glad you are reaching your goal.Patience Mike, patience. I’m busy working on tires & sag. Wheels and adapters are mounted but the big 185/80/14 tires interfere with the rear fenders due to some rear end sag that I didn’t notice before. I’ll put up pictures and a narrative soon.
Laughing here Roy. Didnt mean to jump the gun, but was a little excited for you. Heck if it was old Detroit iron you could throw on some shackles and run G50s on her. Hard to adapt that concept to a VW.
The last chapter. For those of you wondering about putting real wire wheels on a VW framed TDr at minimum cost, here is my shade tree mechanic’s experience:Why do it? I just love wire wheels. I am not fond of those plastic wheel covers that look like wires from a distance when moving. New bolt on (Dayton) wires are out of my price range. So I decided to do it myself if possible.With the help of one of our members (Thanks Allen) I bought 5 14″ 60 spoke 5-1/2″ wide chromed wire wheels with 4 adapters and 4 spinners and a spinner wrench and 2 good tires for $200. No shipping. As a gamble. They turned out to be true with much less than 1/8″ run-out, good splines and no damage but they still need extensive cleaning and maybe sandblasting and painting (to be later determined). I sure wish that they had been 15″ but you can’t have everything.Problems: The 4x130mm VW bolt pattern is very big (large diameter circle). Re-drilling VW brake drums seemed to be the best way to adapt the standard adapters that are used on most Englishsports cars. Then you would have real spin offs. It was hoped that I could redrill the adapters rather than the brake drums but I discovered that the resulting nuts or studs that would hold theadapter to the 4x130mm drum would interfere with the “basket” that the spokes originate from causing it to not sit flush against the hub. There is no amount of tweaking or fiddling that could bedone to the adapter or the bolts or studs to fix this problem. I was talked out of welding on the cast iron brake drums as a bad idea which may lead to sudden catastrophic failure. So the question of how to adapt the adapters left only one option: drill the VW hubs and try to grab the stiffeners that are cast into the backside of the hubs to reinforce them.Solution?: Here is what I did. Made many many templates/patterns. Discovered that if I went down in lug size from the VW original 14mm to 7/16″-20tpi I could grab enough of the reinforcingspider on the rear “test” brake drum to make me feel comfortable. Using a brand new 25/64 drill and a new tap, i drilled and tapped 4 holes (from the outside since the inside is not flat) in each ofthe rears. I used my old bench mounted drill press and went super slow on drill speed and tried not to rush the job. To my surprise, it worked both wheels perfect. I had originally decided to uselug bolts vs studs from the back but intuitively thought that a grade 5 bolt threaded (permatex threadlocked) from the backside through the brake drum would be stronger and hoped that the head of the bolt did not interfere with any of the braking mechanism. It did not. So I bolted the adapter plate on to the drums and discovered that the nuts were too tall and interfered with the inside of the bundt cake shaped spoke basket. Chucked up a 7/16″ nut in my drill press and using an angle grinder with the drill press running I shaped the nuts to be conical which made them self centering by allowed the nuts to nestle nicely in the conical recesses of the adapter. Measured the run-out on the adapters when mounted: almost none. Rears are done.Darn it, I had trouble uploading a picture of the backside of the brake drums showing the reinforcing webs. I think maybe it went to my photo gallery.
Fronts surprised me. The spider reinforcing web on the inside of the drum is different from the rears. It has 8 spokes in the front instead of only 4 as in the rears. More careful measuring.Discovered that you could straddle between spokes and that would be where the hub is thicker (closer to the axle). Decided to do the same as I had on the rears: drilling and tapping 7/16″-20.Bolted them through the backside with my homemade tapered nuts on holding the adapters on. Still no interference. Good to go.I am very comfortable with this whole project from a safety standpoint. I do not feel that I weakened the drums any and 7/16″/20 is a standard wheel lug size on cars heavier and faster.Before starting, I had purchased a front and rear drum from a junkyard to play with until I decided how to attack the problem. I discovered something that I did not know: all front 4x130mm brake drums are not the same. Some (the one that I bought) has a ridge on the face to help you center the tire when mounting before/as you install the lug nuts. This type brake drum would cause a lot of trouble drilling and tapping if trying to mount the wire adapters as I have described above.So, I have the cost of the wheels, adapters, spin-offs ($200) plus a drill bit and a tap as expenses so far. I need some 14″ tires and never thought that that might hold me up, but it is.Thanks for all your suggestions, help and encouragement. I really appreciate it.RoyRoyal2012-06-11 17:12:29
Oh yeah, I know – I need some 2 eared spinners to be correct for the period. Next semi-major project is to fabricate and mount the spare on the rear deck (if it doesn’t interfere with my luggage rack). For that I get to use my “new” MIG welder but need to buy one more adapter of any size just so long as it has the correct spline and of course one more spinner. Does it ever end? I hope not, – my last car was a “perfect” MB 230SLK. Nice car, no fun. Nothing to do. These TD’s keep you young eh?
Roy, you mentioned you used a Grade 5 bolt to mount your adapters
to the brake drums. Just for peace of mind you might consider
going with a Grade 8 bolt. That is an extremely critical area you’re
working with there.
They do look good.Bill Ascheman
Fiberfab Ford
Modified 5.0, 5sp., 4:11
Autocross & Hillclimb
"Drive Happy"Bill, I was going to use Grade 8 but couldn’t find 16 in my size. Was talked into grade 5 by a couple of hot rodders. What hardness are standard lug bolts? I couldn’t find the answer. I could change them but Grade 8’s are pretty pricey.
Find a “Tractor Supply”. They sell hardware by the pound.
It’s just that that area is so critical.Bill Ascheman
Fiberfab Ford
Modified 5.0, 5sp., 4:11
Autocross & Hillclimb
"Drive Happy"OK guys, am in the process of changing to Grade 8’s now. Putting on new shoes while I’m at it.
What’s the final finish going to be? Paint, Powder Coat or Chrome?
Bill Ascheman
Fiberfab Ford
Modified 5.0, 5sp., 4:11
Autocross & Hillclimb
"Drive Happy"As it turns out, these wheels are not as bad as I thought. I’m having luck cleaning them up with greased lightening and my wife’s toothbrush, – but it is a slow process and I’m afraid that she will get home before I finish. A lot of what I thought was rust was just some sort of hard to get off dirty yellowish stuff. I have a power washer and it didn’t touch this stuff, but a power toothbrush with a lot of greased lightening seems to do ok. They are not going to be show condition when I’m done but this is a driver and they already look good enough to make me very happy. Just hope she doesn’t get back soon. Gotta go and pick up my “spare” wheel that I got a new tire for. The real cost of my wire wheel extravaganza may have to include a shopping trip for Julie.
A note on Grade 8 cap bolts: I bought a bag of 25 from Fastenal for what Lowes would have charged me for 10+/-. A bit less than 1/2 price.HAAAA!!
Yeah, get her a new toothbrush, you cad!
On the bolts, too. Good bet the Fastenal folks will have actual Grade 8 bolts, instead of cast Grade 2s stamped to look like Grade 8.
It will definitely make me feel better that your hub bolts won’t break on you.
Looking forward to finished photos.I’ve been holding this photo back. This is from my initial build in 1989.
I still have these wheels in my basement waiting for the alteration of
my car’s “patina”.
Bill Ascheman
Fiberfab Ford
Modified 5.0, 5sp., 4:11
Autocross & Hillclimb
"Drive Happy"Nothing like a set of real wires. I wish you luck.
Bill Ascheman
Fiberfab Ford
Modified 5.0, 5sp., 4:11
Autocross & Hillclimb
"Drive Happy"Thanks Bill.
I have always had this abnormal attraction to real wire wheels that no amount of therapy seemed able to “fix”. Mine are 60 spokes and I feel safer in them but I really prefer the look of 48 spokers.I recently had a nicely running really quick Jensen Healey that I had to sell because of a “patina” problem. In a metal car, it can be cost prohibitive. I’m no good at all with body work.Sorry to hear of partner’s son. Julie and I are praying for everyone concerned.Folks, I think that I am done with the wire wheel conversion (except for taking them off again and giving them a “best I can do” polishing). I expect that some of you are tired of hearing all the details of the conversion. It was fun. Been there, done that. If any of you have any questions, I can probably save you some time and money.
Roy. I’m not at all tired of the wire wheel topic. That’s the best improvement per dollar I’ve seen in a while,maybe ever. Thanks for working this conversion out and sharing it with us here. I know that the TD did not come with wire wheels but I cannot think of anything that improves the appearance as much as they do. Your car looks very English and in my opinion that’s a good thing.
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