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Hello, Any info re ; which of the TD kit cars is the best handling, true sports car like performance? May go for another kit and would like something with a better feel. thanks Dennis P
All VW based TD kits are basically the same. (exception:The London Roadster and a couple of others have modified front ends.)
This threadis a good one to read carefully. Some of the modifications here make rather dramatic changes in handling.It is very difficult to tell you what to do since we don’t know what your complaint is.ps: I grew up and spent 40 years of my life in your back yard: Roscoe, NY. You have great sports car roads up there. I miss them..Hi, no real complants re my VW MiGi, but, if I go for another kit TD, I would like to get one that feel more like my MGB. I admit I enjoy my FF MiGi more when it comes time to fix things.
I’m going to have to bow out of this thread as I never really liked the MGB. I have had a Bugeye, TR6, MGTF-1500, a few Sunbeams, 911s and a Lancia Zagato up in NY. I always thought the Bugeye and the MGTF were the most sports car like (which I will loosely define as “fun”). This is too subjective for me. Sorry, but I always felt that the MGB was too many compromises to try and suit the American public. They made it almost too civilized. I once went for a long trip on a rainy day in a MGB and I didn’t even get wet. 😉 One man’s meat is another’s ……and all that rot.
If not satisfied with the rear-engine VW kit’s handling — which can be improved, as Roy pointed toward – I would lean toward a Ford-based kit with a manual transmission.
If you use the 2000cc OHC German-spec TL-20 engine used in the earlier Ford Pinto and Mercury Capri (not the 1600cc pushrod engine), rather than the 2300cc OHC Lima US-spec engine used in later Pintos and Mustang IIs, you get a higher compression engine with 24 more HP and a higher RPM… a much sportier engine for the same weight and it’s a bolt-in swap.That would give you a 100 HP, roughly 2000 lb, front-engined, car… then, you’d have to fine-tune with shocks, sway bars, etc. Note that you could easily modify that engine to get 150 HP or more, yet still be streetable and reliable. Several racing classes used that engine, especially in Europe.Caveat: I have no experience with a Ford nor Chevette TDr — though I’ve owned Pintos with both engines mentioned…More info on the engine family:KentT2013-06-18 13:01:03
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...wow, good input. Yes, as I now recall, I enjoyed my MGA Mk.II 1600 much more than the B. So a good point of reference would be the A or Spridget, great feel on those. Was wondering if the front engined replicas were much different.
Just sayin’: the vw kit I drive turned in better autoX times than did four(?) miatas and a Suby WRX. And that’s with 45 horsepower. And stock suspension.
So how sporty are you looking to be?
I was going to post Ed’s autocross results, but decided to let him blow his own horn. What Ed says deserves study. I do not find our TD’s to be slow. Rather, they are very responsive and quite quick. The reduced weight of our TDrs gives them plenty adequate power/weight for a sports car.
I really suspect that you may need some tweaking of your suspension, – assuming that your engine is operating at 100%. Check out that link that I mentioned earlier. It’s a good one.wow, what do these changes cost? Will also work on tire pressures, runnung 24 front and 28 rear, at present. Also, have not been very aggressive with gas pedal, having been told rear end can break out and spin? Engine is a fresh rebuild from 1500 to 1600cc and pulls well, even on the mountains. Can climb anything without down shift to 3rd. Enjoying the conversation and help. DennisP
Dennis,
Reduce your front tire pressure to 18#. Then take her out and push a bit on some of those great roads you have. In my experience, assuming good tires – while it is true that it is possible to have the rear end spin out, it is really unlikely that it will surprise you. What I am saying is that the front end will likely lose traction first.You really need to come to Carlisle Pa in 2014 and run in the autocross. You will drive your car differently (with more confidence) if you do.If you can climb all the mountains in 4th, your engine sounds like it’s running good.Most of the suspension tweaks do not cost much. Removing leaves is free – just labor. Are you carrying front end ballast?Please post some pictures.As usual, these comments are based upon my own experience. Others may have differing opinions.I don’t remember if you have a swing-axle or IRS rear suspension. If you have a swing-axle, I suggest you put a “camber compensator” on it to completely prevent the tire/wheel from folding in. (An IRS doesn’t need one.)
Then, I suggest you:a. Drop the front tire pressure to 16-18 PSIb. Find some curvy, low-traffic roads and experiment a bit when the streets are nice and dry. Try different speeds and different “brake points” as you enter the curve. I think you’ll be surprised at how fast and safe it feels.A VW is typically not nearly as prone to breaking loose and “spinning out” as a front-engined, rear-wheel drive car is. The weight of the engine provides much more traction than a front-engined car. Just because it is rear-engined or because of the HP to weight ratio may be high, isn’t a real negative. Look how successful Porsche has been with rear-engined cars for decades…But, when driving them hard, you do have to drive a bit differently. Once they do get to the “breaking point” and the rear tires break loose, the rear end comes around much quicker (and farther) because of the weight hanging out behind the rear axle will swing the car like a pendulum. With a rear-engined car it is much more important to slow down and brake before the curve, then accelerate completely through the curve. If under acceleration, the chances of tires breaking loose with the VW’s limited power is quite slim… they’ll accelerate out of a curve like a “slot car.”In summary, you can’t safely drift” a rear engined car through a turn, the way you can a front-engined one. But, the point at which the tires break loose comes later…Hope that makes sense, and hope it helps.DOH: Roy posted a succinct post while I was typing, rambling on..KentT2013-06-18 16:53:48
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...OK, so, step one is drop the pressure in the front and go out and test. Modify drive style for Migi. Also, how do I know what the guy who built it did with the leaves in the axle beam? What is recommended for rear pressure? Rear is stock 67, I don” know if it is irs or swing. I was told it is the 67 rear by a local vw resto man. Thanks
Will post pictures when I figure out how to get them out of our first digital camera and post them. I am used to getting film developed and mailing them in an envelope. She is a very dark, gelcoat, BRG, almost black, new biscuit interior, black wheels with trim rings and MG TD crests on vw hub caps. The roads here are great, much better than my old home, Brooklyn. Been to Eagle’s nest in our BGT and loved it. Would love to make Carlisle, next year. Dennis P
If it is a 1967, it is a swing-axle rear suspension. So, I suggest a camber compensator as your first modification/addition.
Rear tire pressure should be 24-26 PSI.Sadly, there’s no easy way to tell what may have been done to the torsion bar leaves without pulling a swing arm off. One clue would be to see if a 6″ or so section of the lower beam has been cut in the center and then re-welded back in. That’s what most build instructions called for “back in the day.” If the lower torsion beam has been cut and rewelded to lower the car, then chances are that they did not remove leaves from the torsion bars.Also check up front to see if ballast of some kind has been added. There may be a weight box on the passenger’s side of the floorpan in the trunk. Or they may have welded steel plate to either the top or bottom of the floorpan. It that cut/re-weld has not been done, then they would have had to lower the front end (assuming it has been) by removing torsion bar leaves, using dropped spindles, or adding weight.Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...P.S. No front end Ballast and rear tires seem to scrub in tight, fast turns.
Will make adjustments and check beam for welds, check ride height, test and report!
Didn’t know so much could be done.thanksYes, that scrubbing is normal for a swing-axle. A camber compensator like shown below will dramatically reduce that.
One caution — wet pavement (or snow/ice) is where rear-engined cars are truly more dangerous because they will still lose traction sometimes in those curves, and the rear end will swing around quickly. Just pretend you’re driving a very high HP vehicle at those times, going slow and easy, and you should be OK… You still have more traction than a front-engined, rear wheel drive car, it’s just that it is much more dangerous when you do lose traction.KentT2013-06-18 17:50:35
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...OK, Dennis. x2 on the camber compensator. Swing axle cars don’t handle as well as IRS ones do out of the box, but a lot of Speedster guys have made them into little monsters with the addition of the compensator in the back and a larger (3/4-inch) sway bar in front.
The other problem most of the TD replicas have, as discussed, is too much spring rate in front. That’s what happens when you remove several hundred pounds from the chassis and “cut-and-turn” the front axle beam to lower the car. In other words: it’s what happens when you build the kit according to the kit maker’s directions.That gives you crazy-stupid amounts of understeer, and while a little understeer is mostly good, too much can be dangerous.The fix is to get beam adjusters welded in or just buy a new adjustable beam. Then remove all or most of the small torsion leaves from the front beam, so as to match the car’s spring rate with the actual weight.You then put new radials on it, inflated at what others will think is comically low pressures (15-18 lbs in front; 20-26 in back, usually), and (assuming your steering box, link pins, tie rod ends and wheel bearings are all to spec) the dang thing will magically handle.edsnova2013-06-18 21:13:06
And I’ll second that, Edsnova! I am delighted the way my car handles now! ( removed all the small bars and installed shorter shocks) If you have standard shocks and a lowered front end then you are likely riding right on your shocks and it will not handle that way!
Well, Corrected tire pressure to 20 f and 26 rear and the transformation is incredible. Really like it. the axle beam was cut, cleaned off grease and found welds, one on each side of center. On rear, found 2 heavy duty coil over shocks. Will get rid of these and replace with stock all around. Thanks so much for the info and help. Now I know why so many say the kits are better handling than real. looking foward to all the suggested mods. Thanks a mil. Dennis P
Good feedback, Dennis! You may want to drop the front tire pressure a couple more pounds and see how you like that. It may not improve handling all that much but it certainly could make a difference in how comfortable it rides…
Yes, these kits handle better than the original MGs without a lot of fussing with them, and can affordable be made to handle MUCH, MUCH better. Similarly, the little VW engine when combined with the weight reduction, will out-perform the original MG, and you can increase the HP about 50% (i.e. 75-80 HP) affordably, and still have a reliable, street-able machine. It would take one of those rare high-$$ superchargers for the stock MG engine to match that performance…Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Maybe my last quetion, HA! How does one determine if front end has been lowered. By having been cut and welded, does this indicate it is lowered??
Yes. Per the build manuals, you cut loose that section while you have a bare floor-pan, before the TDr body is installed. Then you have a 150-180 lb person stand on the front of the floor-pan to make it go down lower, then tack-weld it while the person stands on it. This allows the center section of the lower torsion bar tube to rotate, then you lock it into the new position with the tack welds. (The center section is where the grub-screw is located that holds the leaves of the torsion bars in place.) Finally, you completely weld up the tube again, once the person has moved out of the way. This is supposed to lower the front 1.5″ to 2″ once the lighter fiberglass body is installed, and essentially return the frame to its stock ride height with the lighter body.
Similarly you’re supposed to adjust the rear swing arms one “tooth” on the end of the splined rear torsion bar to compensate the lower body weight.Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Kent has it right. It should have been “lowered” to about the stock ride height. If your trailing arms are close to level then the car is close to the stock ride height. And that’s a good thing. You take it more than an inch and a half below that and you start getting complications, starting (not ending) with a need for new shocks.
If you want to make a slammed TD then get some drop spindles. I don’t recommend it though.Soooo, If my beam is lowered to stock ride hight, sans a full VW body, do I use stock front shocks or the Lowered VW shocks I see in catalogues????????? Dennis p
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