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Hello everyone! I’m new to the forum and currently working on a Duchess model VW MG TD replica purchased in 1982. The vehicle has 1500 miles on it and has been sitting untouched for at least a decade. It is based upon a 1970 Beetle. I put a 12V battery into it. I pulled the filler house from the gas tank and siphoned out all the old varnish smelling gas. I then put in at least 3 gallons of gas into the tank. I replaced the fuel filter with a clear one with replaceable inserts. The car turns over, but isn’t getting gas. I pulled the line to the carb and it’s not pumping anything. I pulled the line from the tank and it’s not sending anything either. The idle control valve, ignition coil, and what I believe to be the choke heated up in the process of cranking the vehicle repeatedly. At this point, considering I am new to VM motors, I come to you folks in hopes of answers. Let me know what you think!
Not sure what kind fo tank Duchess has, but my Fiberfab MiGi uses the standard VW tank. If the line is pulled from tank, gas will drain out of tank by gravity. If no gas is leaving tank, it can’t get to fuel pump.
Follow Al’s advice and disconnect the fuel line. You can do this at the inlet to the fuel pump. If no fuel comes out of the hose (almost all of them are above the level of the fuel pump) then you know where to start. If this sat in a garage for 10+/- years, it is very likely that your next move will be to replace the fuel tank. I have tried to clean many fuel tanks and it can be done, but my recommendation is to replace it. You can blow out the fuel line (with air) backwards into the tank to insure that it is not clogged.
The choke will get hot if the ignition is on, it is supposed to. Same with the idle solenoid.I have a small fuel tank off an old lawnmower that I use when starting an old engine. I know that I am getting good fuel to the carb.If it won’t fire, then the carb is probably clogged up and needs cleaning.I don’t quite understand, Al. Considering I pulled the filler hose, that is the cause of the issue? Here is a picture of a Duchess tank. Although, mine is slightly different. The fuel tank is mounted under the hood. It is secured with straps that are riveted to the floor. I believe it to be aftermarket. Is there any easy way to get it out without drilling out the rivets? It has a filler inlet and a second hose smaller hose to the left of it. There is a hole in the top of the tank with some sort of cap that has two small gauge wires coming off of it. Is the pump inside the tank or is it the small device that is below the carb with lines coming from the tank and going to the carb? Could I, in theory, disconnect the rubber line coming from the metal fuel lines and place a line into a gas can to see if the pump is working properly? How would I go about cleaning the tank and, better yet, where would I come up with a replacement that would fit? Thanks for the advice!
Also, that solenoid in your top picture, arrow on the right is an anti-run-on (aka diesel) fuel shutoff. It is intended to stop fuel flow through the carb when you shut the engine off. If it is defective or stuck, it too will block fuel flow.
If you’re getting fuel flow from the fuel pump, that is the likely culprit…However, many/most people simply unscrew it and cut the end of the plunger off with snips or dykes, and put it back in. As long as your engine is tuned right, and not over-heating, you shouldn’t have a run-on problem when using decent quality gasoline.KentT2013-05-30 11:26:12
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...I don’t believe that solenoid to be the culprit quite yet as, now that I’m thinking about it, fuel would have to reach that point first. Fuel is not making it there, as can be seen through the clear in-line filter. In that first picture, is the fuel pump visable? Is it in the tank?
In that first pic, the fuel pump is that thing just to the right of, and below the spring on the carb, next to the distributor cap. It has a domed top on it.
KentT2013-05-30 11:49:11
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...I think to bring the tank out of the equation temporarily, I will pull the bottom line coming from the tank and run it off a gas can. I would assume that if it starts and runs, at least I know it’s the tank/lines for sure. If that’s the pump, is there anything in the tank besides a strainer? Is that round metal device on top a float for the gas level?
Hi Jonathon,
First…welcome aboard! Nice to have another new owner here!Second, I’m gonna have to charge a royalty for reusing the picture of my trunk.
Before we dig into fuel flow, will the car start if you drip feed gas directly into the carb? As you suggested, run a fuel line from a gas can either to the gas pump or drip feed directly into the carb.Or will it start on starter fluid? Load up the carb with starter fluid and crank it.If it starts that way, we are definitely dealing with a fuel flow issue within the car.The tank is not an aftermarket tank. It was provided by Classic Roadsters. The only way to remove the tank is to drill the rivet holding the tank strap to the center tunnel. You will not be able to get a replacement. You’d have to have a tank made to duplicate the old tank. But that’s not really a big deal.You already know the large line leading to the tank is the filler hose.The “cap” on the top of the tank with the wires is the sending unit for the gas gauge.The small line is the gas line, it connects to a metal fitting on the top of the center tunnel, which leads to the steel gas line that runs through the tunnel. The fuel line exists at the rear of the tunnel, there is normal gas line connecting to a short steel tube that in turn is connected to a normal fuel line that leads to the fuel pump.There is no fuel pump in the tank.You are correct. The fuel pump is, in your words, the “…small device that is below the carb with lines coming from the tank and going to the carb….” Has sort of a cross embossed on the top.You said there is no fuel getting to the carb, and no fuel draining from the tank when you disconnect the line at the tank.First guess would be that the steel portion of the line at the tank is clogged. Easy to check, if you have a compressor. Or even a bike tire pump if you don’t have a compressor. Disconnect the fuel line from the center tunnel, and blow air through it. You should hear air flow or bubbling in the tank.If that is clear, reconnect it, then do the same thing at the rear. Disconnect the line from the inlet side of the gas pump, blow air through it. Would help to have someone at the front of the car listening for air flow/bubbling. Or just connect a long fuel line so you can be standing at the front of the car while pumping air through the lines.Different than most of the reproductions and the original VW, the Duchess fuel line at the tank is NOT above the level of the fuel pump. it is about level with it. Gravity alone won’t provide a gas flow to the pump.If the lines are clear, it is likely the fuel pump gone bad.The pump is an easy and cheap replacement.Replace all the soft fuel lines also. They are old. And might be deteriorated inside. They might even allow air to flow, but be soft enugh to collapse when the pump tries to pull gas through them.PMOSSBERG2013-05-30 11:59:35
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
When gas fuel sits for a long time, especially like ten years or more, the volatile
elements in the fuel evaporate and you are left with a gummy residue
that clogs up all the fine passages that the fuel flows through. You
probably cannot get your fuel system cleaned adequately with Seafoam or
Berryman’s at this point, you most likely have to take it apart and
thoroughly clean it.
There is a little filter or mesh type strainer on most tank fuel pickup lines and yours may be clogged with a varnish type residue or clogged with rust. You can try and blow air through it to see if it or the fuel line hose is clogged.
Next, your carb jets are probably clogged with the same “varnish” residue and you need to remove and clean the carb, remove the jets and make sure they are open.You have to start at the tank first and follow the path of fuel to see where it’s not getting through to the carb. It’s more likely to be one of these problems than a bad fuel pump, but now, you are not even able to get gas to that pump to see if it works. You can hook up an external tank to the pump, crank the engine, and see if gas squirts out, and be careful where it goes – pump it into another container.
You had better check that your engine oil is flowing too after sitting for ten years.BIGBAND39 wrote:I think to bring the tank out of the equation temporarily, I will pull the bottom line coming from the tank and run it off a gas can. I would assume that if it starts and runs, at least I know it’s the tank/lines for sure. If that’s the pump, is there anything in the tank besides a strainer? Is that round metal device on top a float for the gas level?Sounds like a good first step to start pinning down the cause, but be aware that the stock VW fuel pump is intended to be gravity fed (it doesn’t produce either much vacuum or much pressure) so make sure that the gas can is placed above the level of the fuel pump.Then, Paul’s troubleshooting path/sequence is prudent.Mine that I’w working through right now had been sitting for 15 years. The tank was dry, but there was no visible residue/gum in the bottom. I removed it and confirmed that it flows freely. Then, I’ve replaced all rubber lines. When I make it to the back I’ll replace the fuel pump (stock ones are less than $30 online), and the rubber lines there, go from there. But, I’ve already done Paul’s test of filling the fuel bowl and starting the engine.BTW, a squeeze bottle like you used to see for catsup or condiments works well to fill the fuel bowl on a VW carb. Just use it to squeeze some gas into the tube visible in the center of the air inlet on top of the carb. This will let you test to see if you have clogged jets in the carb, since the fuel has to go through the normal jets to get mixed. If you just dump it into the air inlet, you can’t tell if the jets are clogged…
BTW, the wires to your gas tank are for the fuel gauge sending unit, not a fuel pump…KentT2013-05-30 12:35:02
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Just did mine Tues night, same problem, I disconnected line where it goes into fuel pump from tank, and disconnected line at top of tank, (why its on top of tank instead of bottom IDK but it works) blew it out with air compressor, little or no air came out so I checked rubber line section from tank to metal line in tunnel and it was collapsed internally, new piece of rubber line and she fired up no problems (after getting gas primed back thru lines by cranking)
All of this has been extremely helpful. I probably won’t be able to tinker with it until Wednesday, but I will let you all know what I find out. 🙂
Good luck Jonathan!
We’ll be here when you get to tinkering!There’s one requirement for payback when you get done……drive her to the Carlisle Import/Kit Car Nationals in May 2014!Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
Why wouldn’t a little starting spray work.Thats how i start my German engine on my lawn mower.
greg press wrote:Why wouldn’t a little starting spray work.Thats how i start my German engine on my lawn mower.Starting spray will work to start the car (assuming good compression, ignition and timing), but as soon as the starting spray is burned, if there is a fuel problem, the engine will die…KentT2013-05-31 00:15:06
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...On Sunday I was able to swing by the garage and tinker a little further. I took the line coming from the fuel tank and ran it into a gas can. I tilted the gas can as far as I could without spilling it and held it above the level of the pump (as I was told to do considering the pump is gravity driven). After repeated cranking, no gas ever made it to the in-line filter.
I’m guessing it’s the pump then? How can I tell (or can anyone tell from my pictures) if I have a generator or an alternator? Apparently the pumps are different. I would have sprayed some starting fluid in and tried to start it, but I’m a one man operation when I’m down there. You have a generator.
Even a one man bigband can try to start the engine with starter fluid. A constant stream is not necessary. Just spray a bunch into the carb. Then crank the engine. At a minimum, you’ll be able to tell if the engine goignto catch. And it might even start and run a couple seconds.Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
What you are describing is just putting a line into a fuel can, the line is not full of fuel, it is full of air. You have no siphon or any fuel getting into the pump. The pump works if fuel is delivered to it, in our cars from the line draining the bottom of the tank via gravity, the line being full of fuel leading into the pump, not full of air. These pumps do not generate negative pressure or suction to get primed with fuel, they only generate positive pressure to push the fuel out that is inside of the pump.
Instead of putting the line into a can of fuel, you would have to put it onto the bottom of a funnel, then fill the funnel with gas, then that gas will flow into the fuel pump. Get it? I’m making myself clear?
Either get someone else to help you as you need more than 2 hands to hold the funnel (away from the engine) and turn the key on, or somehow secure the funnel so it won’t pour gas all over the car.
You cannot say anything about the fuel pump the way you are doing this and there may be nothing wrong with the pump.You have a generator. Generators are not as “fat” as alternators. Fuel pumps for alternators are shorter, to clear that alternator, and have a shorter plunger rod (not sure what to call it) that goes down into the crankcase. As long as you swap out both the plunger, base and pump, they are interchangeable…
In fact, some aftermarket carbs (like the progressive Webers) will often require that you swap out the fuel pump on a generator engine to get the clearance needed for the new intake manifold and carb.Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...Was the line full of gas?
I ask because I think the “gravity feed” part of the equation means you need to have gas in the fuel pump (or at least right up to it) for the pump to work. Before you replace (and it’s an easy, cheap replacement, so don’t worry) unplug the line that goes into the fuel pump from the tank. set it lower than the pump inlet and see if anything comes out. If yes, then maybe you got a bad pump.If not, get thee a 3 or 4-foot length of fresh fuel line and fill it with gas. You know the old soda straw trick? It works for this too. Curl up the hose and immerse it inside your gas can with an inch or less above the fuel level. Plug that end air tight, remove the hose and attach the open end to your pump inlet. Then unplug the other side while it’s higher than the fuel pump and drop it into your gas can. Don’t worry about tilting the can. Just set it down above the engine, maybe on a board you lay across the well behind the seat.Now, unplug the fuel line from the carb. Put the end in a plastic beer cup or something, and have someone else crank the starter while you watch.Does it squirt lots of gas with a “pulse?” If so, the pump is good.Does it dribble a bit and not pulse? If that, replace the fuel pump.The alcohol in modern ethanol gas is notorious for destroying rubber or soft plastics, especially in situations where the engine is stored for long periods of time. (The Outdoor Power Equipment industry – boats, lawnmowers, etc. – hate the stuff, and there’s lots of horror stories of it causing serious problems.
Should your fuel pump be bad, it was likely the result of the ethanol slowly destroying the rubber diaphragm in the pump, over time…Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away you could get rebuild kits for the original VW fuel pumps that contained a new diaphragm and gaskets, but I’m not sure they’re even available any more, and that would only work if the fuel pump was original German VW, and not an aftermarket one…Heck, you could once buy just the replacement bearings and bushings for VW windshield wiper motors, for example. On the older VWs essentially any wear item was designed to be repaired and not replaced until the wear was out of tolerance. That slowly changed over time, and all aftermarket replacement parts are essentially disposable. But, I digress…Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...The line did not have any gas in it. I can definitely try that. The fuel pump was ordered and will be in tomorrow morning. 😀 If I don’t need it, I can always return it. The motor was said to be running fine 10 years ago with no smoking. I’m hoping that sitting covered all these years, it will come back to life again. I’m sure the carb isn’t getting gas, but I still don’t know for sure if I’m getting spark either. It’s a pain working on this alone.
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