June 24, 2013 at 10:35 pm #234774
Something new to me.The last couple of times I’ve been out with my car it seem to turn over real slow and sometimes wont start.I
think its heat related.On 85 degree days its worse than 70 degree days.After a long run and a stop for gas I will have to wait 15 minutes to get on my way. I read that it could be the timing needs to be advanced a little or the carb need to be adjusted what do you guys think. It starts good when cold.June 25, 2013 at 12:45 am #256832ray10Participant
Greg I would have the battery checked. could have a bad cell?
http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=7f9174ad614e43b680deba085b0abf48June 25, 2013 at 8:18 am #256833
In my experience heat will not effect how fast the engine turns over (though cold certainly will).Can you better describe exactly how it reacts when you try to start it? Does it turn over at normal speed? Does it even try to fire? Does it spit, stumble, and die? Etc…
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...June 25, 2013 at 10:00 am #256834newkitmanParticipant
Could need a hard start relay added to the circuit.
VW based 53MGTD - "MoneyPenny"
"If one thing matters, everything matters" - from the book The ShackJune 25, 2013 at 11:42 am #256835
As per request: This only after a drive when the engine is hot. You turn the key an it turns over very slowly like your battery is going dead.I believe it would start if it would turn a little faster.It is trying to start and sometimes it does.Its kind like this
After it cools down you barely have to turn the key and it starts.June 25, 2013 at 11:50 am #256836
1. Check the battery first, as suggested2. If that is not the issue, I’d remove the starter and have it bench-checked.3. If that isn’t it, I pull the engine and replace the starter bushing. The nose of the starter fits into a bronze or “oil-lite” type bushing in the aluminum transaxle housing. (This is the equivalent of a bearing for that end of the starter.) If worn, it can let the starter drag a bit during starting. Plus, you’re dealing with the different expansion rate of dissimilar metals – the aluminum bellhousing, the bushing, and the noseshaft on the starter are three different types of metals that expand at different rates when they get hot… It’s a bit of a PITA because you have to remove the engine to get to it, and drive it out through the hole where the starter mounts.
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...June 25, 2013 at 5:23 pm #256837
If what you are telling me is so. Why does the problem only exist when starting a hot engine?June 25, 2013 at 5:58 pm #256838Gabor KesseruParticipant
To diagnose whether this is a starter, or bushing, or battery problem try this:
remove plugs when cold. Turn engine by hand and try to get a feel how hard it is to turn.
Do the same when engine is hot and starter is dragging.
If it feels the same, then it is a starter motor or starter bushing problem. If it is hard to turn when hot, then you have worse problems in the engine…..
As a beginning point, clean and tighten the posts on the battery and the insides of the battery terminals on the cable. Likewise for the connection at the solenoid and the starter. Ground connections also. All contacts need to be shiny clean, best done with a battery post tool.June 25, 2013 at 10:17 pm #256839
When the engine is hot, the starter is also hot from the heat of the engine, since they are “connected” at the flywheel location through the transmission’s bell-housing. VW starters aren’t as subject to heat as some “normal” cars, since they’re on the opposite side of the flywheel, but the VW, being aircooled, runs hotter than other water-cooled cars…Hot starters can “drag” due to increased friction on the bushings or bearings. That’s why I suggested bench-checking it. They’ll typically spin them enough to get them hot during testing, and measure for the power consumption while also monitoring the speed it turns…This isn’t common, but it can happen. I can think of no other way that heat can slow down a healthy engine.Heat can cause engine bearings to start to gall, and slow down their rotation. Here’s hoping that is not going on… if so, it’s engine rebuild time.Are there any other signs of engine over-heating? Do you have an oil temp gauge – though they’re not always accurate. Does the engine smell really hot? Do you experience “run-on” aka “dieseling” when you turn the hot engine off? Etc.
Early FF TDr on 69 VW pan
Slowly coming back from the ashes...June 25, 2013 at 11:57 pm #256840Neil J FlahertyParticipant
Greg, Years ago, I had a VW repair business. Although the shop manual calls for engine removal to replace that bushing which is pressed into the case, it can be removed easily by using a bottoming tap. Unfortunatly I don’t recall the size, but tomorrow I will look through my tools and see if I can find it. In any case, it obviously is just a little bit larger than the shaft on the starter. If you had either another starter, or another bushing. (back in the day, my recollection was that the bushing was less than a buck, probably 2 or 3 today) Hope this helps. You do have to pull the starter by the way. FYI when the bushing is worn it allows the armiture of the starter to be mis-aligned. When it’s hot the alignment is even worse. Neil F.June 26, 2013 at 11:31 am #256841Steve StruchenParticipant
profile57Do you just keep turning the bottoming tap into and past the bushing and thus forcing the bushing out? Sounds like a neat trick. Thanks.
mustang_evets2013-06-26 11:32:42July 11, 2013 at 2:38 pm #256842
Well…. I have a similar problem to Greg’s only my car doesn’t have to be hot. When I start it, it turns a couple of times(but slowly) and then kicks right off. I can let it run just a few seconds (probably less than 30 secs) rev the engine a few times during that time and then shut it down. Then when I try to restart it, it really turns over slow, but will finally kick over and start. I just took the battery to Sam’s Club for a test and they tested it and said it was ok and also put it on a charge cycle for about 1 hr. I also cleaned the battery terminals and cable connections before reinstalling the battery. I would suspect the ground, but I would think if the ground was bad it would act the same every time I started it. I guess the next step is the pull the starter and have it tested unless there is something else I should do first. Thoughts?
SamJuly 11, 2013 at 3:16 pm #256843RoyalParticipant
Sam, If it were mine, I would try eliminating all possible wires and contacts by: blocking and jacking the back of your TD up in the air, remove the right rear wheel, get some jumper cables and a good battery and make a good ground for the battery directly to the engine, then hook the jumper cable to the starter side of the starter solenoid and lastly, when all’s clear, touch the positive of the jumper cable to the battery. If it acts the same, you’re gonna have to pull the starter. Otherwise you have a ground problem or possibly a bad wire/cable or cable end that has corroded to the point that it won’t pass enough amperage to turn the starter. The problem here would probably be one of the big cables that go from the battery to ground or from the positive side of the battery to the solenoid or the connectors. It might (hopefully) be just the contact where the cable connects onto the solenoid is loose and needs cleaning and tightening.Good luck.July 11, 2013 at 6:06 pm #256844Gabor KesseruParticipant
I have seen this hard starting problem be because of a timing problem. Recommend you check it just to get rid of that possibility.July 11, 2013 at 8:01 pm #256845
I went thru the timing issue when I first got the car. I’m going to try Roy’s suggestion now that I know I have a good battery that is fully charged. Will let you know how it turns out.
SamJuly 16, 2013 at 1:24 pm #256846
Ok. I tried Roy’s suggestion as outlined above to bypass all wiring and jump directly from a battery to the starter and the starter still did the slow drag so off to Auto Zone to get one of their rebuilt starters for $40 and installed it. It now turns over normally and starts.
SamJuly 16, 2013 at 2:01 pm #256847RoyalParticipant
Great news Sam. Can we pencil you in for the VaBch Air and Auto Classic at the end of October?July 16, 2013 at 3:28 pm #256848
Haven’t decided yet. As I mentioned, I still have to get the Cobra finished and there are some more things I need to do to the TD to get it road worthy and reliable.
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