Wire Wheels

[Royal]

Ed, re: the cotter pin.  How ’bout a small hole through the spline in the adapter to allow removal??

 

4×100’s may be the way to go, but I’m still trying to find a less expensive way. 

[Paul Mossberg]

It would still be hard to get to to remove and then to insert a new one and bend it back properly.

I’m still voting for option two, weld a wider flange to your adapters!

Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica Roadster

If you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)

[Royal]

OK guys. I finally did get over to the yard and now have a rusty old rear drum that I have been pondering.   

    Where the raised spider like stiffeners on the backside (where the threaded 14mm lug studs screw in) the thickness is 14mm.  . 

    Between the raised sections, the thickness is about 10mm. 

    A few posts ago, we toyed with the idea of putting lug studs in.  This would allow for me to switch back and forth easily between wires and steelies.  I like that. 

    It would be simple requiring only drilling and setting the studs home with a press.  I like that also. 

    What is your gut feel, is the 10mm between spider legs thick enough to be safe with studs? 

     If not, would putting a washer or some other load distributing piece under the stud be a good idea?  (I have a feeling that this is getting a bit Rube Goldbergy.) 

 

 

[edward ericson]

I like the “take it to a machine shop” idea. If they quote it high you can always walk. They’ll know a bit more about the metal & what it’s likely to take than most of us will.

[Mike]

Roy I think the stud idea may be doable. 10MM is a tad more than 3/8″. You may have to have the backside of the drum spot faced like we talked about in an earlier post because the drum will be rough and possibly not flat in this area. The face on the stud head needs to contact surface area all the way around for strength. This will also keep the stud straight and reduce load on the sides of the stud. A machine shop could also make some flat spacers say about 1/4 to 3/8 thick with a diameter of 1 to 1-1/4 inch like you suggested. These would help distribute the load. These things I suggested along with the precision hole drilling should be reasonably priced at your local shop. Just a thought, but you could pick up a stud and take drum and stud by a shop and see what they think about your project. There should be no charge for an estimate and they may have a brainstorm and look at it in a whole new direction.

[Paul Mossberg]

I’m gonna be the nay-sayer here. Based on nothing but intuition…and well, a bunch of pretty solid German engineers.

The 10mm section is 30% thinner than the 14mm section.
You could also say the sections with the stud holes are 40% thicker (and the math is easier this way too!)

In my VERY humble opinion, that is significant.

Those German engineers designed the drums as they did for a reason.
And they put the stud holes where they did for a reason.

I trust them. And would not gamble against them.

But as our MG forefathers said – Safety Fast.

Maybe I just like option 2 and I’m being stubborn.

Maybe not.

PMOSSBERG2012-05-04 21:36:14

Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica Roadster

If you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)

[Mike]

Roy just an after thought here. Not sure if you have ever removed rear drums on a VW, but they are torqued to well over 200 ft lbs so you will want to break these loose with wheels on the ground not
on jack stands.

[Mike]

You may be right here Paul. Thats why I suggested to take the project to a local shop and let them have a look see. A good shop wont do the job at all if they see a safety issue. I also see those German engineers held true to the bolt diameter to material thickness (14mm in this case) that I told Roy about in an earlier post.You also may note that i am also a fan of method #2 in adapter modification. No drum pulling and welding steel is much different that welding cast iron. I have seen welders welding a crack in cast iron and the crack run away from the rod. I have also seen them weld cast iron and see it re crack as it cools down. Welding and machining the adapters is without any doubt the strongest and safest solution.
Mike N Scarlett2012-05-04 21:55:18

[Royal]

Thanks guys,  I appreciate the hard look and honest opinions.  I am smarter having been able to sound out some of these idea with you.  I get my wheels and adapters in another week and will take them to a shop to get some opinions. 

Mike – Yes, I have removed the rear wheels on MiGi.  During an A-Z brake job.  The nut just laughed at my impact wrench.  I had a piece of pipe 8 ft long and with it assisting me, I broke a 1/2″ drive Snap-On breaker bar.  (I used to have 3/4″ drive stuff but gave it all to my son.  I have rebuilt more than a few engines and really never needed 3/4″ drive.)  Finally went to my local VW restoration shop and they handed me the special VW rear axle 36mm wrench made out of 1/4″ plate.  Only took a few whacks with a sledge and it was off.  Nothing to it if you know the tricks (which I did not).  (Didn’t even hurt myself.)

[edward ericson]

Oooh. Good knowledge on those rear drums. I just have the 8-foot pipe and the half-inch breaker bar….

[newkitman]

Roy,

I have a 36mm socket welded to a 6-ft, 3/4-inch thich of rebar. Works wonders on those rear axle nuts. Aso have a Torque Miester tool. That thing is amazing!

newkitman2012-05-04 23:15:40

Allen Caron
VW based 53MGTD - "MoneyPenny"
"If one thing matters, everything matters" - from the book The Shack

[Paul Mossberg]

I love crackin’ those rear axle nuts.

I believe there are a couple German engineers looking down laughing at us every time someone has to tackle that job!
“I told you Hans, two busted knuckles for every axle nut.”

PMOSSBERG2012-05-05 01:04:38

Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica Roadster

If you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)

[mike]

[mike]

i have been following the wire wheel thing and came across 5 -48 spoke Austin Healey wheels and some tr4 adapters so far. im thinking of welding a ring to give it more outside diameter and drill it 130mm. perhaps the blank drum might be simpler (kISS).
the rear wheel austin healey adapters have a 5×5″ bolt pattern but would widen the track by  a couple inches. these may work on non vw cars better. my neighbor has an mgb with 14″ wires so im gonna check those out too.
so many projects, so little time

[edward ericson]

Those adaptors look very good. Make sure to check the splines on them and in the wheels though.

Then have them checked for “true.”

Good luck.

–oh, and for the love of all that’s holy, don’t leave ’em out in the rain. The splines reportedly will rust and then they’re just interesting conversation pieces–maybe good for making a coffee table base.

edsnova2012-05-08 19:58:55

[Royal]

Well, I got my wheels and as Allen said, they need some work.  But on to the question of will they fit:  Remember that these are 185×14″ aftermarket MGB replacement tires.  I believe that the wheels are also stock offset, backspacing for an MGB.  Here is my first look at the project.  First a surprise – the slightly fatter 185×14’s will not come any closer and cause any interference problems on the inside than the 165×15’s that I have been running.  The wire wheels backspacing is enough different such that the inside of the 185 will actually be 1/4″ further out than the 165’s.  I measured from a spare brake drum to the fattest part of the tires.  To measure the wire backspacing, the adapter was also installed between the drum and the wheel.   (For some reason, I am unable to upload the pictures I took.)  The punch line here is that it appears that there is no problem with clearance.  Since the overall section width of the 184 is about 3/4″ bigger than the 165, the track of the TD will increase by about 1/2″ each side or 1″ overall.  More to follow after Carlisle. 

[Royal]

I don’t know if any of you guys are interested in my wire wheel saga, but here’s the latest chapter:

     I screwed 4 lugs into my spare brake drum (without the adapter in situ), just to test fit the “preferred solutions”  (see earlier post in this thread) on how to mount the adapter to a VW and I’m here to tell you that I do not believe that modifying a splined adapter by welding “ears”, or donut, or any other manner that would retain the original 130mm spacing will work.  The problem is that the bundt cake shaped ring that the wire spokes originate from hits the heads of the lugs.  They are simply too far apart.  This would mean that the wire wheel bundt female cone would not touch the adapters male conical mating surface, and the wheel would sit on the tops of the lug bolts which hold the adapter to the drum.   It appears that grinding off enough of the lug to allow the wheel to seat on the adapter would mean that there is almost no meat left on the lug bolt head.  

     Options 1,2 & 4 are out.  3,5 & 6 are possible but which way to go??  Or just cut my losses and throw in the towel?

     This is really bad news and so I am facing redrilling the brake drums to the “standard” smaller pattern of the adapter.  Buying new blank rear brake drums (CiP) and tapping them is relatively easy, but I still have not found a source for blank front drums.  So I guess that the front drums would have to be weld built up and reinforced before drilling and tapping.  I talked to a few machine shops in the area and they did not want to weld on the cast iron drums.  The other alternative of putting discs (blank rotors can be purchased) on the front is cost prohibitive.  I’m already getting over my head cost-wise and still have not figured out how to mount the darn adapters.   

     I’m telling you that if I ever get this done, I’m going to expect a lot of kudos from you TD’ers.

[edward ericson]

What about installing studs then? Isn’t that the way Schu went with his? Press ’em in your existing drums in between the lug bolt holes. If the system doesn’t work, get them pressed out and you’re back where you started–albeit with four extra holes in your drums.

Rimmer Bros sells ’em by the piece, along with the little nuts.

Roy, if you ever get this done, you’ll be king of the club.

Wish it were cheaper though.

[Royal]

You are right Ed (I thought that was option #6).  Studs seem the easiest and probably the safest.  Stay tuned. 

[Mike]

Roy,
sorry to hear that at every turn on this project something else pops up. The only advise I can think of at the moment is to quote a line from the movie The Outlaw Jose Wales “Endeavor to Peserevere”

I did not realize that Schu had installed studs in a drum with success. You had mentioned you had 10mm iron thickness which is just a tad over 3/8 inch. I am still a little concerned here as the adapters add length and leverage here unlike using studs and having a rim bolt directly to the face of the drum. Have you taken the whole setup (adapters, drum and wheel) to a local machine shop and let them see the whole project? Maybe if they see it as a whole they will have the solution.  Still wishing you luck on this.

[Mike]

Roy I sent you an email.

Also sent a private message.Mike N Scarlett2012-05-31 18:48:38

[Royal]

Thanks Mike,  I expect to solve the problem next week.  Perhaps with your help.  I am now in a “full court press” working toward a solution.  If I can’t do it in another week, then I can’t do it at all.  I could “buy it done”, but then I wouldn’t be able to enjoy typical TDr pride of saying “I did it”.

[Mike]

Drawing sent Roy. It is hard to do this long distance, but i am sure something will work.

[Royal]

Thanks Mike,

    I think that these “adapter adapters” (AA’s) address and take care of all the problems that I know of.  I usually try very hard to choose my words such that someone else can see exactly what problem I am addressing.  Sometimes I wonder if I am just not expressing myself clearly enough (almost 71).  I am pleased that you have grasped every element of my current problem in mounting these wheels.  

    It occurs to me that your AA’s might be able to be made thinner and perhaps stronger if I were to use studs in the AA to mount to the wire adapter flange, instead of tappings for lug bolts, eh?  This would of course make the stance a bit closer to stock….probably not enough to matter.  What do you think?   

Thank you for taking the time to try and help. 

    I grew up in the country where everybody fixed and made things themselves.  I was 13  when my father came home from work to find that I had taken the vertical shafted engine off his brand new rotary motor (one of the first in town) and mounted it on the luggage rack of my bicycle.  I took a section of garden hose and wrapped it around the V of a pulley that I found.  Some baling wire inside the hose held it too securely in place.  I mounted it in such a way that it rubbed on the tire.  No centrifugal clutch.  Unfortunately I got it started and found out that it went entirely too fast.  Unfortunately also, I had not thought of a handlebar kill switch.  Nearly electrocuted myself trying to steer with one hand while trying to reach behind with the other trying to find that little springy metal spark plug shorting device.  All this while going about 30mph through a field with tall weeds that were slapping at my legs.  Happy ending: I fell over.  Nothing broken except I got a “whoopin” when dad got home and saw his new lawn mower in pieces. 

    I don’t quit easily and my brother who has a big metal lathe in his shop may leave after his visit next week with a TDr adapter adapter project.  I hope that I can get him interested. 

I really appreciate it.  I wish you lived closer. 

Roy

[Mike]

Roy I hope the drawing helps. It is very hard to mate two parts with a 3rd part when a 4th part (tire) is causing iinterference and you cant get a visual. Studs will work great on the AA as you called it. They can be as simple as tapping the AA, screwing in threaded rod, loctite and welded on back side (drum side) and ground flush. If you have any questions about the drawing or see something that needs to be changed , just shoot me an email. I was not sure how much clearance you needed that is why I dimensioned the offset with a question mark. See what you measure out there and pull it in as close as you can. I wish I was closer to you also Roy because I could come over and we could measure it out to make a correctly dimensioned  drawing.

Mike N Scarlett2012-06-01 06:52:42

[Author]

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