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So I installed new shoes, flex hoses & wheel cylinders in Bridget’s front drums and new flex hoses (and one hard line ’cause I broke it) in the back, where getting the drums off is more than I’m ready to do just this minute.
Bled and bled and bled. Got about mid pedal, and she stops OK now, and doesn’t lock up the left front tyre or pull to the left quite so readily as she used to.
But I want a higher pedal. And I think I might have had one a few months back just after adjusting and bleeding the brakes.
I’m thinking I should feel brakes about an inch after pressing the pedal down. Right now it’s like 2 or 2 1/4 inches.
Who wants to be the first to tell me I need a master cylinder?
Any other ideas?
(99.9 percent sure there’s no more air to bleed out. Went through a whole can of brake fluid in two sessions, no bubble or hissing since early on. Also, no leaks apparent, but will double check that while awaiting your kind replies.)
Earlier this summer I was fiddleing around with an old VW brake system. Interesting systems actually. A good friend of mine Gluaten Klause stopped by. Over a Green bottle he explained to me that many a master cylinder was deemed worn out when really all had to be done was a minor adjustment of the master cylinder push rod. Its located behind the brake pedal and actually adjusts the travel of the pedal. If you need help. I can check with Gluaten for advise. I do recall on about the third green bottle something about loosening a nut and turning something out and tightening a bolt or a nut. But, they were big bottles and it was all theory. Let me know if that helps.
Ed, If the pedal feels right [ not spongy] but goes down farther than you like,it sounds like the problem may be in the adjustment . Did you adjust all four wheels? If you had a full pedal some time in the past ,the master cylinder push rod adjustment must be correct.You need a small amount of clearence in the rod to insure that the master cyl. is returning to the end of it’s stroke., however if this amount is excessive you may not be able to get a full pedal.
Thanks, guys, I’m hip to the adjustment nut behind the pedal. Never touched it yet. There does seem to be that half-inch or less “free play” the book calls for. Will give it a closer look/feel though; what I think of as free play may be something else.
Yeah, I adjusted all four shoes to just off the drums (turned the wheels while turning the star until the wheels stopped turning, then backed off like two clicks. Top and bottom stars). Did it twice, in fact, since after the first lengthy bleed I seemed to have less pedal than desired & thought maybe I’d forgotten that step or botched it.
The pedal also feels just a tad spongy. It stops all right–a good two inches from the fire wall, and all four brakes bite. But there is that sense of–I don’t know–“non-solidness” about it. Could be in my noggin. Haven’t been driving her for two weeks and might be used to the ABS discs on the truck.
Keep those ideas coming. And thanks again.
Ed,
Are you saying you have a half inch of free play between the brake lever adjustment rod and the master cylinder?
No way amigo.
The tip of the brake lever adjustment rod should be only about 1/8″ off the master cylinder plunger.
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
Best VW manual in the system are the Robert Bentley manuals. In another forum they call the late model VW manual the “Orange” Bentley maual because that’s the color of the cover. It covers the entire VW and Karmann Ghia (which I just rebuilt) and has a ton of super value information. Get it at Amazon.com…its less expensive there. Ore try eBay. The Orange Bentley covers 68 (I believe) to 74 VWs. You’ll find all the adjustments for the chassis and brake system there with photos.
Allen Caron
VW based 53MGTD - "MoneyPenny"
"If one thing matters, everything matters" - from the book The ShackThanks, gentlemen. I’ll crawl under there tonight and see if I can take out some of that free play. Maybe it’s better than I thought.
If you have all of the air out of the system, you can pull the hand brake and adjust the front shoes very tight, then try your pedal. It should be hard and high then. I fit’s not then you still have some air in the system and you can buy a little pump and bleed from the wheels back to the masted cyl to try to get it out. I presume you were measuring the free play at pedal and not the rod to cup area?
Chuck
My good frien Glueten says no more than an 1/8 inch. He has seen this many times before
OK, so I got more than 1/8 “free” play, (more like a half inch) but no access at all to the 13 mm lock nut on account of there’s like a 20-inch extender bar between that and the pedal. This thing travels inside that inaccessible area beyond the “false” firewall but before the tab on the chassis to which the master cylinder is bolted…apparently from behind.
The BCW manual is no help. Assembly instructions basically say build it before the body’s on. No provision for reaching it ever again (without taking the body off, one presumes).
Anyway, OK. So if I unbolt my extender bar at the pedal end, I suppose I could turn the whole shaft. If I turn it counter-clockwise a couple spins that should back it out a bit and take up the freeplay slack, right?
And that should not leave me in any danger of backing the &:[%$# clean out of the master plunger, correct?
I’m not seeing any hint of wheel cylinder leakage anywhere (though lots of puddles from the bleeds). Will try a bleed again as I forgot to pump them vigorously before the operation & so maybe, maybe, left some air in there after all.
I can’t believe this setup is unusual amongst our cars. Anyone done a master on theirs? How the heck do you get to it?
I have full access to the adjuster in my Duchess. The front trunk areas of the Duchess are configured differently than most TD kits. The brake lever extension rides in side a piece of PVC tubing, which is slightly shorter than the extension rod. so you can get to the end with the adjuster
You can disconnect the shaft and pull it without fear of dislodging the master cylinder plunger. But getting it back in is going to be tricky without access. You’l be holding the end of the 24 to 30″ extension, trying to get the far end into a 1/4″ hole in the master cylinder.
I would cut an access panel in the fiberglass. Than just cover the hole when you are done. Is that possible?
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
Ed, I cut an access hole under the fender when I replaced my master cylinder . On my car there is a flat panel beside the master cyl.I made the opening just big enough to get my hand thru to get a wrench to the bolts. I covered it with a piece of sheet metal held in place with screws. This area was previously undercoated and it is barely visable after reapplying the undercoat. It’s not a structual concern and should have been included in the design .
Ed,
I have a pump kit I made w/ a garden sprayer that I can bring to the pumpkin run if you still want to bleed it some more. About 5 pumps on the sprayer and I can bleed my whole system – just have to be sure you are using a standard VW Bug brake fluid tank.
Let me know,
Dale
Thanks, Dale. I just borrowed one from a friend. Hope it’ll be all done before the 9th. Will need to make the lid for it though. What did you use for a cap to keep the pressure in your system?
Larry–your idea might be better than going through the top. Either way will work though. Thanks for the suggestion.
Richard: thanks for the kind words. Hope your car is back on the road soon.
. Anyone done a master on theirs? How the heck do you get to it?
[/QUOTE]Ed Im not sure how the BCW is set up. I just put a master cylinder on my CMC/Fiberfab and you can get access by removing the battery box. Remember that there are spacers inside the napolean hat and if you pull the master cylinder bolts out the spacers will drop down and you will be doing some hard fishing for sure. I bled the new master by putting it in a plastic bottle like a 2 litre soda bottle. I pulled the plastic shipping caps out and poured in brake fluid until all the ports were under. Then i pumped the master until no more air bubbles were present. Put the plastic caps back in the master, did a quick wipe down and put it on. You will only get a small amount of dribble when you pull the caps one at a time and attache the rigid lines.
Ed I just looked at your car in your gallery and from what I can see in your under the hood pic, it looks a lot like my CMC. My battery sits in front of the gas tank in its on molded tub that can be removed from the main part that holds the tank. On mine thats where you get access to the master cylinder bolts (remember the inner spacers). The nuts are on the master cylinder side. I hope yours is set up like this because its easy to get to.Thats also where you can get to and adjust the plunger rod(at least on mine). Im not saying you need to replace your master, but from the looks of it in the photo it appears to have been on your car quite some time. If it can be replaced easily it will be good piece of mind for $30.00 or so.
Ed, search the web for posti’s bcw . You will see how one BCW owner replaced his master cylinder without cutting and by himselfThis is a neat site ,unfortunately he has sold his BCW and now has a MGTC.
Ed,
If you have a standard vw fluid tank – I used a cap off of a 1 quart oil can w/
a brass inset I bought at Lowes or HD in the plumbing section. Screw on
where the cap goes and pump up about 5 times and bleed back to front.
Re-pump if needed- may need a small rubber washer like used on a water
hose if you have a air leak. Worked great for me – good luck.
Dale
OK, got ‘er done.
Mike: BCW battery box seems to be a one-piece with the rest of the front tub. Since the hood hinges on the driver’s side, this sort of makes sense, as access to the master cylinder reaching from the passenger side would be tough any way.
So I went with Larry’s method.
Cut a pretty big hole and reached in and turned the nuts. Suddenly: PGP–pretty good pedal.
I tightened her up, retrieved a battery hold down bar that had fallen in there probably decades ago, then put a chunk of alumitape over the port.
Then I grabbed a piece of boat battery box I’d had to cut away last weekend doing boat stuff. Glad I saved it.
Put it on just with screws for now. When I’m sure everything’s kosher I’ll take it off and put some silicone sealant under it and screw it back on.
Thanks, all, for the advice. Dale, I’ll def. use your oil cap idea for the re-bleed. Also got a 4-foot cheater bar to loosen up those giant castle nuts on the back wheels. Give me a big enough lever and I can move the world.
Good work Ed.
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
Hey that Gluaten Klause Rocks Glad to hear it was only that. Found an engine starting a rebuild probably be spending sometime with gluaten after Nov 2.
Glad everything worked out for you Ed. The access hole you put in was a good idea and should have been in the original design, but compared to some of the things Detroit has done it was a minor design flaw. I was a little worried about the rear axel nuts when I did my brakes too, but they came loose easier than I thought they would. Seems they torque around 250 ft lbs and had been on there for umpteen years. Again im glad you were able to take care of your problem
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