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While we all wait Rockyx’s result, here is something else to ponder. Page 124 of Jud Purvis “Fix Your Volkswagen”, 1965, reads:
EASY WAY TO REMOVE TORSION BARS
To remove either or both of the front torsion bars, the front end of the car must be raised and supported behind the frame head.
1-Remove front wheels.
2-Remove outer tie rod ends.
3-Remove brake drums and backing plates.(It is not necessary to disconnect brake lines.)
4-Remove pinch bolts at the torsion arm eyes. See Fig G-8
5-Remove torsion arm link and steering knuckle as a unit by bumping with a soft hammer. See Fig G-9
6-Remove Shock absorbers.
7-Remove torsion arms on one side. See Fig G-10
8-Release the lock nut and setscrew at center anchor, and slide out as shown in Fig G-11
Note that where step 7 says “remove the torsion arm”, Fig G-10 shows removing the torsion arm lock nut and set screw. Fig G-11 shows removing the torsion bars/leaves as a bundle from one side while still inside the torsion arm. It is my hope that if you carefully remove the torsion arm, leaving the leaves still in the beam, that you could slide out which ever number of bars and have it back together in time for dinner.
I realize that Purvis is not often cited as an expert, but my Idiot book and Bentley’s have not yet arrived.
I have discovered one other very important thing recently: I am happiest with a wrench in my hand. Good luck. Roy
Roy, One other thing to remember,, Remove the same number of leaves from both the upper and lower tube.This will allow the suspension to still function as it was originally designed. If you remove leaves from only one tube,the front would indeed come down but it would have one stiff spring and one softer one.Also ,though it may necessitate pulling the suspension apart again,don’t take out too many leaves the first time as it appears that they will be harder to get back in place than they were to remove.
Paul – sorry, I meant GR-2, not GS-2 (typo).
What my question was supposed to be, is that if my lower to upper shock mount is supposed to be 21″, and I only measure 15″ with that shock, is that shock OK, does it compress that much sitting unloaded, or is that shock too short? Can you get a taller shock that is “soft”?
There is no doubt that if I had a taller shock the car body would sit higher, and even though I know how the suspension works, that would possibly/probably make for a harder ride.Marc, I suspect that you don’t want to hear this but I really don’t think that you want to “fix” your clearance problem by putting in a taller shock. The reason that a taller shock would raise the front end would be that it was bottomed out meaning that it would be at the extreme of the compressed stage. This would be like putting a steel rod in the shocks place to raise the height of the body. Not good. You would essentially be defeating the purpose of the shock absorber. Sounds like you need to add a few of the torsion leaves that I am talking about removing. Roy
I don’t think any leaves were taken out of mine. I’m just wondering if my shocks are too short or they have bottomed out although they don’t seen so by looking at them. I cannot find anywhere on the web what length they are supposed to be, I only know they are 15″ long as they sit in my car right now, and Paul says that distance should be 21″.
Royal is right about installing a taller shock. That will not help your clearance issues.
And based on what my friend told me last night about the amount of “lift” when you unload the suspension, I would say yes, five inches or so of comprlession is normal when the car is on the tires.
Mrlmd, I don’t recall, do you have an adjustable beam in your car? It is possible a prior builder/owner removed a couple leaves, but without an adjustable beam to raise the car back to where it should be. I’m just speculating.
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
Marc, Here is what I would suggest. Take the shocks out of the front and measure the distance between shock mounts. It probably did not change unless you have adjustable air (as opposed to gas) shocks. Now if you were to want to raise the body, you would either adjust the setting on the beam adjuster or add leaves. If you currently have 10 leaves per beam, then I would suspect that one or more are broken and should be replaced. After you get the height where you want it, then measure between the shock mounts again and then see if you can find some el-cheapo shocks which have a mid point distance (halfway between fully compressed and fully expanded) as close as possible to the new distance between mounts. Some may suggest installing coil springs around and over the shock tubes, but I have never been a fan. Roy
I have a stock, nonadjustable beam.
I seriously doubt if any leaves have been removed or are broken as my car sits 9″ off the ground.
I may remove the shocks and see what the measurement is between upper and lower mounts, it may be the same or less without some of the shock force holding it up. If it is still 15 or 16″ at rest with no shock, then it would seem to me I could get a taller shock if Paul is right that the distance between mounts should be 21″ for a ball joint suspension. I realize that raising or lowering an adjustable beam changes that distance but it also raises or lowers the car off the ground. My car is high enough and it is level. I just may need a new set of shocks that will be 1 or 2″ or so longer, or newer, to keep that car at 16″ or so instead of 15″ between mounts. I really am looking for a solution other than spending maybe a total of $400-500 for parts and labor to install an adjustable beam so can’t a slightly longer shock do the same thing?
How much harder could the ride get if the shock is only 1 or 2 ” longer, if I can find one? I hate to belabor this, just trying to solve a minor problem at lot easier and less expensive if I can.mrlmd, Adding longer shocks will not raise the ride height at all.If you install shocks that are too long ,they will bottom out before the suspension reaches it’s lowest point of travel.That is not a workable solution.Only shocks with springs attached or air shocks will raise the ride height.Regular shocks do not support any weight. They only effect the speed at which the suspension travels up and down.
Hey guys, I pulled the small torsion bars out of the front assembly last night and promised to share my experience and pics. So here goes.
Since I’m on the front side of my restore my front assembly is completely accessible because there is no body on the car. So I didn’t have to go through the process of removing tires, separating ball joints, etc.
If you have to do that be sure and mark where your camber adjuster is positioned so it goes back in the same place. Something I forgot to do when I tore mine down.
First I removed the grub screws from the torsion arm and pulled it off. Then I removed the grub screw on the torsion bar assembly so I could slide the bars out.
I tried to remove the small bars without removing the opposite side, just to see if it could be done….it can’t…at least I couldn’t do it. Both arms had to be removed. I guess if you removed just the grub screw on the opposite side you MIGHT be able to keep from removing the whole arm, but I didn’t try that method.
Once I had the arms off and the locking grub screw off I simply lifted up the small bars with a screw driver and clamped my vice grips to them. I did push them from the other side so they were separated and easier to grab but that was for convenience not necessity.
The top ones pulled right out. Make sure you have plenty of room to pull them out. And I suggest using latex glove for the entire process because it’s a mess. Remember, once you have the bars out you have to put them somewhere. That alone can be a greasy mess.
The bottom removal process was exactly the same except that it took some sledge hammer work to break the bars loose. You can see from the photo below there was some rust build up….even with the grease.
So Roy, if your bars are seized up due to rust you may need a bigger hammer. Once you have the torsion arms off you may want to spray some PB Blaster in from both sides to loosen things up a bit. Just a suggestion.
Anyway, I hope this is helpful.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION: In my haste to post pictures I forgot to pass on some other basic information that took me a while to find. So in hopes of lessening your information search you should know the following (nothing big but it was helpful to know).
– There are 10 bars in each tube (I have a 69 donor; some older models will have fewer).
– 4 large bars in the middle and 3 smaller bars on top and bottom
– There is a notch on both ends of the 4 large bars that the grub screw sets into
– Be sure and remove the torsion arms BEFORE you remove the center grub screw on the tube assembly (if you remove the center screw first you MAY pull out the bars when you try to remove the first arm…this would be a greasy mess and could create more work)
– It would helpful to measure how much the bars extend on each side once you remove the arms (another reason to leave the center grub screw til last). This way if they get moved around during your work you can easily reset them for the center grub screw for reassembly.
– The bars only go in one way so don’t worry about messing up their orientation during your work.
– Finally (I think) take the time to check and regrease/replace your bearings and bushing while you’re in that deep.
rockyx40839.3380671296
Rockyx, Thanks, your pics and description were a great help in bolstering my confidence. Now that I have an idea of what I will be getting into, I’ll get on mine as soon as I can. What is is like to work on a car amd not even have to wash your hands before dinner? Holy Cow, I thought mine was pretty clean, but yours is cleaner than our kitchen sink. Beautiful work. Thanks, Roy
Great stuff Rocky!
If a picture is worth a thousand words, this post is priceless.
But your commentary on each step of the process adds even more value!Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
What do you think? Considering that it steered quite well with the body at the elevated height do you think that I should order camber adjusting shims before I take the leaves out? I was planning to take 4 of the 6 smaller leaves out of each tube. That would leave me with One small, 4 big, then one small in each tube. Is that center beam grub going to “bite” well enough? What do you think, sound ok for a first test? FYI I read in Haynes Repair Manual that the early VW’s had only 8, not 10 leaves. (It didn’t say how early “early” was. I hope to get to it on Tuesday if I don’t need to order camber shims.
Royal;
I’m going to go out on a limb here.I think your frontend is rusted tight.I went back and looked at your pics(enlarged)I can see grease oozing from the zerks,bad sign,there should be grease oozing out the ends of the torsion tubes,not the zerks.I belive there to be rust buildup inside the tubes,and or the bearings are rusted.You might end up haveing to put in a new/or used front beem.
Check on the samba,there was a new stock width adjustable ball joint beem,bare,new but aged for $125
Whatever you end up doing keep us posted.
Roy,
I’m not sure camber adjusters will change the smoothness of your steering but it will allow you to more accurately align the front end.
The grub screws will grab the remaining bars just fine.
Look at the following site to find out how many bars your donor car has. http://www.vw-resource.com/years.html
Regarding how many to remove, I followed the consistent advice from folks on this site and removed all 6 from each tube. I’m hanging on to them just in case though.
Good luck…and don’t forget those latex gloves and PB Blaster.
One last question from me on here regarding ride height. I just went out to look at my shocks again, GR-2’s, and there is hardly any travel in the shocks if I jump on or bounce the front of the car, bumper or fender, like they are just about bottomed out. So If they are at the limit of their travel at being compressed, wouldn’t that have anything to do with dropping the front of may car’s body closer to the tires, reducing the lower to upper shock mounting distance to 15″ instead of maybe 17 or 18″ if the shocks were good? It’s almost like I have no shocks in place now, just a 15″ spacer. If I replaced those shocks wouldn’t my car sit up another inch or two at least?
My suspension does travel up and down, the trailing arms and the whole car moves well when I push down on the car and it bounces back quite nicely, so the torsion bars etc. work. Just the shocks do not move. They will lengthen if I pull the car up, then settle way back down, compressed.Mrlmd…from what you describe, if your shocks are “bottomed out”, then replacement shocks with the proper travel would likely let the car settle down more, not less.
Think of it this way, the car’s weight is currently compressing the shocks fully. Without the shocks “bottoming out”, the car would be able to move even lower.
PMOSSBERG40839.9009143518
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
just my 2 cents worth.But why not just take the shocks off and see what the ride height is with out them?
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Paul, I understood everything you said before, but not that. If the shocks have no or little compressive force, (ie, compressed, at the bottom of their travel), the car will sit low. If they are good, and sit in the middle of their travel, the car should sit higher. Are you trying to say the shocks support absolutely none of the car’s weight?
I think I will remove the shocks and see where the car sits.
Correct! “The shocks support absolutely none of the car’s weight.” They simply slow down and dampen the action of the suspension. The British still (I believe) call shock absorbers “dampers”. Roy
Thanks Roy.
Yes. Shock absorbers do exactly that, they absorb shock….jounce (the compression) and rebound.
Ever see a car going down the road with one tire that looks like it’s bouncing liek a rubber ball? that is a bad shock. The suspenion and tire are free to bounce around, because the shock is no longer “controlling” the action.
Paul Mossberg
Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
2005 Intermeccanica RoadsterIf you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)
Remove a shock absorber from the car and you will then see that it has no ability to support the vehicle.If you extend it to it’s maxium length, it will stay in that position. If you compress it to the shortest length ,it will stay in that position. If you put it in the center of it’s travel, it will stay there as well . It will also stay in any position between fully extended or fully compressed until it has it’s position changed be some outside force. Unless the shock is bottomed out [fully compressed] too long for the car ,it cannot raise the height of the car. Unless the shock is too short for the car,[fully extended],it can not lower the height of the car.
Then what would make the shock sit in it’s mounts at the bottom of it’s travel, instead of in the middle where it’s supposed to be? Where it is now seems to be compressed. Wouldn’t a good or a better shock, the same GR-2’s, be longer in the car with more distance between the the mounts and have a few inches of travel up and down? The limit of my shock travel now is maybe an inch or two, which I don’t think is normal. This is the part I don’t understand.
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