Need advice on ride height

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  • #233768
    Royal
    Participant

    @royal

    I’m a new guy here so bear with me please.  My Daytona TD seems to be very nose high.  My shocks sit with 18″ between mount centers.  That seems like an awful lot (can’t read the id #’s).  And she really rides stiff.  I have 5″ of clearance between the 165/80R15’s and the closest point (that is actually not inside the well) of the front fenders.  The “hood” is almost perfectly level.  I can find no indication of the front beam being anything but stock VW.  The bottom of the beam has a clearance of 11.5″ road clearance.  I know that many of you have a road clearance issue after removing torsion bar leafs.  But if I removed all six of the half leafs, and got an approx 2 1/2 inch drop, it seems to me that everything would be improved.  Or, I could put in dropped spindles which although lowering the car 2 1/2″ would not improve the ride.  I was thinking of moving the battery as far forward, just behind the radiator but am uncomfortable with it so near the fuel tank and the filler (which would be almost immediately above).  If I jack up the front end using the front beam, it only moves up about 1/2″ before I can spin the tire.  That doesn’t seem right to me. 

    I really need someone to give me a bit of good advice on how to proceed.  

    Thanks,

    Roy

     

    #247209
    Paul Mossberg
    Keymaster

    @pmossberg

    Roy,

    The road clearance from ground to lower edge of floor pan should be about 7.5 inches.

    Your 11.5 inches of ground cearance is way too high.

    And when you jack up the car, you should definitely be lifting it through more of its suspension travel before the front tires come off the ground.

    I do not believe the lightness of the front end is your problem. When I removed the steel Beetle body from its chassis, the front end did not raise much at all. And it certainly did NOT rise 4 to 5 inches.

    I think a stock, ball joint-front end is about 21 inches from upper to lower shock mounts. A link-pin front end (pre-1966) is shorter, 16 to 16.5 inches.

    Your shocks sound like they are in the ball park. In fact they may be short, if your car has a ball joint front end.

    Complicating this is your comment that your hood is level. With the car at its correct ride heights front & rear, the hood should be level.

    If you were able to drop your front end four to five inches, the hood would be sloping down. That is not correct.

    I’d love to see pictures of your car and the front suspension.

    And I realize I’m not solving anything here. I’m just trying to further the diagnostic process.

    Paul Mossberg
    Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
    2005 Intermeccanica Roadster

    If you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)

    #247210
    edward ericson
    Participant

    @edsnova

    Spend 20 minutes:

    I’d look to see if the beam was cut. Are the two grub bolts in the middle of the tubes parallel and facing front? If so, the beam was never cut–and that’s probably good news.

    If the bolts are akimbo (meaning kit assembly protocol was followed) I’d take the shocks out and see if it drops. They could be stopping your downward travel.

    If it doesn’t drop with the shocks out, jounce the front & listen and feel. Something else may be binding; it’s not unheard of for the torsion bearings to freeze up or bind. If that’s it, shoot some grease in and try to crack them free. Probably wouldn’t hurt to grease ’em anyway.

    If none of that does it, then maybe someone installed an extra high buggy kit in your beam. Or maybe the trailing arms are on wrong. Either way, you find out when you break it down to take some leaves out.

    #247211
    Royal
    Participant

    @royal

    Ed, there are 2 bolts, one on each torsion tube and they face slightly down.  Perhaps screwed in from about 8 o’clock as viewed from the drivers side.  If this beam was cut and rewelded, he did a very very good job.  I have greased it pretty good and am not able to break anything free.  But, I will say that it seems stiffer than the 1948 CJ2A that I used to have. 

     

    #247212
    Royal
    Participant

    @royal

    #247213
    Royal
    Participant

    @royal

    I can’t figger out what is wrong but am unable to load pictures.  Can I send them to you in an email?

    #247214
    Larry Murphy
    Participant

    @larry-murphy

     Roy, Welcome aboard. Your pictutes are loading. They are all going to your photo gallery. That’s a nice MiGi. Hang with us and someone here will help you get it lower.

    #247215
    Royal
    Participant

    @royal

    When I stand on the front bumper, the car sags only 1-1/8″.  Does that sound right to you?  (I’m a 200#’der)

     

    #247216
    newkitman
    Participant

    @newkitman

    Hi Royal. Welcome to the TD gang. I looked at the picture of the front tire (shown from behind) and it looks off to me. Probably the camera angle. But just to check…look at the front beam and frame head. Your front beam assembly is held on with four bolts into the frame head. From the angle of the picture the bottom beam looks as if its mounted where the top beam should be. But like I said it could be the camera angle.

    Also you might have shock extenders on top of the shocks. From 72 on the shocks had a small (approx. 6 inch) extender threaded onto the top of the front shock that fit into the top of the shock tower. If you have a pre 72 chassis, someone may have added them.

    Best I can come up with at the moment.

    newkitman40835.7323263889

    Allen Caron
    VW based 53MGTD - "MoneyPenny"
    "If one thing matters, everything matters" - from the book The Shack

    #247217
    edward ericson
    Participant

    @edsnova

    Try the shock thing. If they aren’t bottoming, I’m thinking the beam is fresh, un-cut, and that you just need to pull out all the small leaves and reassemble. Bet that drops it to about right. If not, put a few leaves back in (fun!).

    Once you do this, you’ll have the front dropped down to about 7.5-8 inches clearance, and the beam will sag a lot more than 1.5 inches when you stand on it. Suspect your shocks will be good too, but fitting shocks on these is both art and science.

    Good luck.

    –oh, and yeah, looks like a nice car. Worth your time, for sure.

    edsnova40835.7378356481

    #247218
    Royal
    Participant

    @royal

    Ok, its a job for tomorrow AM.  I’ll undo the shocks and see what that reveals.  I just posted another picture from the side taken from about the height of the front spindle.  I guess everyone agrees that the front needs to come down.  But the rear tire looks about right in the wheel well to me.  So, if I bring the front down, and leave the rear, then the hood won’t be level.  I’m not sure that that, in itself, would bother me, but I wouldn’t want to lose points at the next TD meet that I go to. 

    #247219
    Royal
    Participant

    @royal

    Posts are all over the place about the benefits of removing torsion leaves.  If there is a link that gives a step by step procedure on how to remove a leaf or six, I would appreciate it if someone would send me the link.  Perhaps I could figger it out, but in my case experience is what you get when you do something wrong.  

    #247220
    Paul Mossberg
    Keymaster

    @pmossberg

    Here is Mark’s (pinkmg) thread on leaf removal:

    https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mgtd-kit-car-suspensin/

    Here is Ed’s (edsnova) thread on his front beam replacement:

    https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/adjustable-beam-job/

    PMOSSBERG2013-12-02 22:22:54

    Paul Mossberg
    Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
    2005 Intermeccanica Roadster

    If you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)

    #247221
    Royal
    Participant

    @royal

    G’morn guys.  I took the shocks off and I don’t think that shocks are the problem.  Bummer (that would have been an easy fix)!  The installed shocks are Cofap # B.47533N and I have not been able to find anything about them on the internet after a quick search.  The collapsed length is 14 and extended is 17-1/2 between mounts.  The shocks look almost new and seem to work smoothly with some resistance.  The car rides so stiff that removing them makes no difference around the block.  So, – maybe a prior owner stored the car on stands for a long time and the torsion leaves rusted together inside the tubes??  (No rust on this car anywhere else)  I’ve greased her up good and going to take her out on the roughest road I can find and see if maybe something breaks free.  If not, and I expect not, then I guess I gotta remove some leaves.  I’ve still got all the tools, but don’t like the looks of that job as my 70-YO body has kinda rusted together like the leaves inside MIGI’s torsion bars and I don’t know anybody with ANY mechanical skills near where I live.  There is a guy that restores old VW’s as a profession pretty close, but I’m retired and $$ are a factor. 

    Any other advice or ideas would be most appreciated. 

    #247222
    Paul Mossberg
    Keymaster

    @pmossberg

    Hey Roy…

    Ed managed a front end job by himself…so you can too! (Sorry Ed, I couldn’t resist.)

    Not surprised that removing the shocks did not affect the ride height. Except for something like air shocks, shock absorbers do exactly that…absorb shock. They control compression and rebound, but do not control ride height. The shocks you describe sound correct for your car.

    Something does sound like it’s binding within the torsion tubes.

    But before you pull the front end apart…a routine maintenance item that I bet most VW owners ignore….grease! There are four grease fittings on the torsion beam, two on each tube, towards the outer ends. Start pumping the grease in until clean grease comes out of the tube ends. Let it sit. See if anything loosens up.

    I’m not promising this will affect anything. I’m merely suggesting your diagnostic approach start simple and work your way up. If those tubes are dry, or filled with old, dirty, caked up grease, it “could” affect the ability of the leaves to do their job.

    You previously asked about your front end, if it is stock or not. From the pictures in your gallery, it certainly looks like the stock VW front beam. So the height of the shock towers is not part of the ride height problem.

    PMOSSBERG40836.4496527778

    Paul Mossberg
    Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
    2005 Intermeccanica Roadster

    If you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)

    #247223
    Royal
    Participant

    @royal

    One more question before I either dive in or decide to wait til spring.  Am I correct is thinking that if I just take one wheel and the trailing arms off one side then I could loosen the trailing arms on the other side, loosen the center grub and (with a little luck) pull the torsion bar leaf assembly out from the tubes?  Do all 10 leaves come out as a package?  Then just remove the smaller leaves, slip the 4 big ones back in and see where I “sit” quite literally?     

    #247224
    edward ericson
    Participant

    @edsnova

    I think so.

    #247225
    Larry Murphy
    Participant

    @larry-murphy

     Look in Rockyx’s ”front suspension apart” thread . There are pictures of his disassembled front end. You can see the leaves sticking out of each end of the beam and also the sleeve part of the arms and how far they slide into the beam. It looks to me that they MIGHT be removeable from one side but I wonder if they would slide back into the links working from the opposite side of the car.From what I see,it would be worth a try,but be prepared to pull the other side apart if the leaves will not slip in place. Also realize that I have not performed this procedure myself ,just looking at the pictures.

     After greasing the bars as Paul suggested,Try to break them loose perhaps with two or more people as weight on the front of the car.

    #247226
    Royal
    Participant

    @royal

    Tks Larry, I took it for a the bumpiest ride on the worst road I could find and nothing changed except that now I need some new dentures.  I just found out that we are getting company next week so I lost my best worker/mechanic/helper (my wife) for a while.  I am still wondering if the leaves come out all together or is it possible to slip them out one at a time???  I will let everybody know the results but right now I can’t tear the front end apart because I actually need to drive MIGI.  Thanks to all for the great advice.  Rockyx’s pics helped me bolster my confidence.  And of course, as Paul says “if Ed can do it, anybody can”.  Just kidding guys, – I tend to over-think projects and really appreciate the moral support.  It’s really running great. 

    #247227
    Scott A Chynoweth
    Participant

    @1oldbuzz

    My question is;who built the car?,you?,or did you purchase.from the pics it looks like a converted super to standard,or as stated the beem was raised,or the front of the body was shimmed up for some reason,You can see too much of the steering box in the pics,you have to get on the ground an look to see mine

    #247228
    Rick
    Participant

    @rockyx

    Roy,  I am mechanically minded but not a mechanic.  However, I jumped right in on the rebuild of my front suspension with the help of guys on this site and Samba.

    As a matter of fact I’m going to pull mine back apart this weekend and remove the smaller leaves as suggested by folks here (thanks Ed)

    If you want to give it a shot I (along with others I’m sure) will be glad to walk you through the rebuild and make sure you can get it all back together.

    Good luck and let us know.

    #247229
    Larry Murphy
    Participant

    @larry-murphy

     Buzz, I believe your car is a FiberFab. Royal’s is a MIGI. The MIGI’s body is  farther to the rear of the VW pan ,whereas the FiberFabs sit closer to the front of the pan .That’s why the steering box is easier to see on his car. My London Roadster, which usee a Daytona MiGi body sits in the same position. That’s also why the grille is shorter than the FiberFab cars .It sits on top of the suspension insread of in front of it like the FiberFab. I cannot offer an opinion as to why it sits so high unless the suspension is ”frozen in a high position” from being stored with the weight off the wheels.

    #247230
    Marc Lipsius
    Participant

    @mrlmd

    I don’t want to hijack this thread, but want to ask Paul a quick question related to my earlier thread on car height and rubbing tires on the fender edge when making tight turns.
    Paul, you said in your first post on here that the car height should be 7.5″ off the ground and with a ball joint suspension, the distance between upper and lower shock mounts should be 21″. I have ball mounts (bec. my torsion tubes are 5 3/4 inch apart), my car sits 9″ off the ground at the floor pan and at the middle of the lower torsion tube, and my shock mounts are 15″ apart with what looks like a KBY GS-2 shock on it (JCWhitney and Autozone say this is a gas filled shock). Is this because my shock is being compressed 6″ with the car sitting at rest, or is this shock too short and that’s why I have a clearance problem when I  turn my wheels and the tires hit the fenders because they are too low. I know you do not set the ride height with the shocks, you get an adjustable beam, but are my shocks too short or is this an acceptable measurement with no weight on the car?

    #247231
    Royal
    Participant

    @royal

    Rockyx, I am very interested in watching the progress on softening your front end.  Please try to take some good pictures. Will be particularly interested in if you had to take the whole beam off and whether you could slip a leaf or two out when the others weren’t watching while working from just one side. Thanks, for taking over as the guinea pig while I help my sweetie get the house ready for company.  I wish you fair winds and following seas. 

     

    #247232
    Paul Mossberg
    Keymaster

    @pmossberg

    mrlmd…you’re not hi-jacking. This is all related to what Royal is trying to accomplish.

    I pulled those measurements from a variety of VW sources.
    I’d prefer to take measurements off my own TD. But I don’t have access to it yet. It’s being held hostage.

    Nine inches off the ground, with no suspension changes and no added weight over the front end sounds within reason.

    Royal, I asked a VW friend if the four to five inch jump that you have is within reason. He replied, “Yes it will pop up that high with little weight over the beam….”

    He also confirmed that you can slide leaves out of one side without pulling the trailing arms off both sides.

    Back to mrlmd…I could find no info on KYB GS-2 shocks. Every source I found said GR-2. So I’ve don’t know if the shocks are adding to your clearance problems. But as you point out, oil or gas shocks do not control ride height. So I doubt the shocks are part of the problem.

    Paul Mossberg
    Former Owner of a 1981 Classic Roadsters Ltd. Duchess (VW)
    2005 Intermeccanica Roadster

    If you own a TDr and are not in the Registry, please go to https://tdreplica.com/forums/topic/mg-td-replica-registry/ and register (you need to copy and paste the link)

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